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Posted: Jun 12th 2011 10:42AM bulldozerftw said

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I'm going to check out the new ryzom patch as soon as possible. It's pretty amazing that the game was done entirely open sourced, people programming it on their spare time. Maybe try out the new eve to get some money ready for dust 514 on the ps3. I'll probably be looking for other open sourced or indie type of games in the near future.

It's nice to see the id guys who made the quake engine, which is shareware software, back at it. Apparently the upcoming RAGE game uses their new engine and they're planning on releasing the tools to make maps and stuff like back in the day. They say they have some pretty sophisticated artificial intelligence in it like crysis 2. It's a shame that these guys trying to make better ai is just for shooters . But hopefully this gives us better options of engines to make mmo's out of. The unreal engine just isn't as good as people think it is.

Posted: Jun 12th 2011 2:05PM Kordor said

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Wizardry Online:
Almost 10 years ago PC Games, a German PC Magazine, used to have a journal section where you could find "in character" Stories of Ultime Online. These stories fascinated me so much, that I wanted to play that game very badly. My dream came true when I could persuade my parents to finally get internet access. The fascination of this was basically to explore a new world, to be in danger, to be able to do anything and to do things which actually matter.
While fascinated at first disappointment came fast, as the "real game" does not really match with what was written in RP style. However none of the games really brought back this feeling anymore. A feeling that you are the first (even if it's an illusion) to discover something, the feeling of danger and that you should better not go alone if you want to survive. Wizardry Online seems to focus right on this feeling and a feaute like perma death shows that they actually mean it. Most people seem to be afraid of that, but it really depends on the implementation. Most people are also afraid of losing items forever. This is understandable in a game like WoW. If you played UO, Shadowbane or EVE however you will know that this works quite well, because the games are not designed to be item-centric. I guess same will be the case for perma-death. As it was already said: you will be able to put stuff on an account wide bank. So basically you wont need to completely start over. I am also quite sure, that the character advancement will be different to what WoW players use to see and probably more like UO or Meridian 59. While you were able to advance your character there, it was also possible to do stuff in the very beginning. And with 3 newbie characters you were able to kille a well equipped high level character basically. So if this is done right, I think perma-death can be just the right element to give the tension needed for this game, basically "forcing" the atmosphere onto the players.
I played Wizardy 6 and 7 and partially Wizardy 8 (was quite buggy or incomplete as far as I remember) back then and liked some elements of the game and hated others, like the insane quests (find a serial code for a snail...) and I also didn't like the sci fi crossover. I wasn't actually aware that Wizardy was successful in Japan, especially considering that Wizardy 8 was so rushed. I don't like what we call "asia grinders", however most of the games are actually korean and I am not sure about Japanese games at all. In addition I don't like the fluffy manga style of the characters and hope it won't be too bad in the game cause it would otherwise kill the atmosphere.
To summarize it: I am really looking forward that game and I love the trailer and the atmosphere it already creates. This game could actually bing new wind into the MMO market.
But I hope that my fears that the game will become too asia-fied won't come true.

Posted: Jun 12th 2011 6:53PM Space Cobra said

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@Laephis and a bit @Kodor

There are several schools of thought at looking at this and while "character attachment" is one, it is not the only thing.

There is also "time spent" earning levels and items. Sure, there seems to be a way to pass on such items to a new character, but only stuff you have locked in a bank-vault beforehand.

Some people like building up stats/characters. Others like destroying such accomplishments...and then there are all those flavors in-between.

The thing to consider is not necessarily "character attachment" but "time invested" attachment. I can play an arena-match and have fun, yes, but in this type of MMO, to play and lose a cool sword I just got (or worse, never use it and put it in a bank vault repeatedly for safety's sake) just makes me less attached to such a game and easier to walk away from. Again, it's like the fast Arena-matches of lobby games, I'll have fun for a bit, but I'll move onto the next shiny game and may or may not return to an MMO like Wizardy.

Also, many supporting comments pointed out that if you had 10 people in a group and one decided to go and PK in the dungeon, that the other 9 would kill the offender, I can easily and often see the reverse happen (and have seen it). With either the other members not caring to help or they are all in it to lure newbs to a slaughter. This is a very old trick.

In any event, similar games have tried in the past and only have been successful with hardcore PvP advocates. I welcome this new game to give an example. While it could break the old standards and have a huge following, I rather doubt it, but we shall see. Most over-geared wolves like to prey upon and beat weaker players who present little challenge. While some of this type of players do like a challenge, many more don't. Once the "victims/bait" leave the game, this type of player will also leave. They just don't realize it yet.

Posted: Jun 12th 2011 8:35PM Kordor said

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@Space Cobra
I think you focus your concerns too much on pvp. While pvp may play a role in Wizardry Online I doubt it will be the focus.

In my opinion it's actually quite the opposite of what you said about the "sword you just got and lost" example. If it's really hard to get something, to gather gold or items, you will get more attached to it naturally. And I don't mean by that you have to run 10 times into an instance to finally get a lucky roll. I remember my first hours in Darkfall. When it is really hard to get some money, you automatically see much more value in it, you are actually happy to just have brought 10 coins or so to your bank and it's not like the reward of one of the 20 daily quests you do today for which you can buy an item after a week which is as good as some drop you get anyways.

Of course the game needs to be designed around this whole thing. The loss of your "invested time" must not be too harsh. But it must hurt a lot so that you really want to avoid it. But if you look at eve for example: If you save all your money, buy a huge ship from it and then go to fight some stuff and get killed - well, your ship is gone. So never use a ship you can't efford to lose. When I remember UO for example I am thinking about all the high quality items there...and they were just used for posing. For the actual fight people took items they could effort to lose. It still sucked to die, but this brought the tension and you didn't feel completely destroyed.

In addition I think the game should be fun by itself and not determined by the rewards. If I only grind an Instance for an item, that's stupid if it's not fun. If I only do battlegrounds to get the next set it's stupid as well.
WoW had an instance called Oculus and hardly anyone liked it and if they landed there as random instance they often just left it. To "fix it" some additional loot was implemented. While it's probably the only "easy" solution without a massive amount of work, the "better way" would have been to make the instance more fun.
Yes, I agree that you should not lose all your "time invested" at once, especially if there are random factors you can't really see. But I think it's all about the implementation. And if after a day of playing with friends you lost everything but had a great adventure and lived a great story, you basically created on your own, that might be worth the loss and is something you talk about even after months. While in other games nobody cares if you wiped the second or the 20th time on a boss.

I agree with your concers about pvp. But as I said we need to see how pvp will be implemented in the game. If it has diplomatic sanctions for example, like in Shadowbane or EVE, this might open up a whole new direction. But I doubt it and guess they will reduce pvp to a minimum and make it optional.

It's also important to not always listen to the players. Players want stuff easier and faster most times. But doing that you might damage the game. Same goes for strict Roleplaying Rules on RP Servers (like RP Shards in UO). Nobody likes to be punished. But players need to be punished so that an RP Atmosphere can be established which in the end everyone enjoys. In addition it guarantees a niche of course.
If 70 out of 100 people say that permadeath sucks, it's still wrong to change it. Not just because the 30 people which wanted to enjoy this niche might leave and most of the 70 would play something different anywas, but because if implemented right the result might impress some of the players convincing them to give it a chance and open new perspectives from them.
We have to be aware that we are used to what we see in games like wow. But this doesn't mean that different stuff doesn't work as well. Instead we need to get away from the ideas that this and that feature would suck if it was in a game like wow.

Sorry for any spelling errors, it's late here and I'll fall into my bed in a minute. ;)
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