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Reader Comments (29)

Posted: Jun 10th 2011 11:39PM Tweakalvos said

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Honestly Torfi's rhetoric lately has got me a bit worried. With DUST 514 and the way things are going with the performance issues I hear about Incarna. It's almost in some way forced on players to do this stuff. We want spaceships not dolls. Or ground troops. Last time they put out a new EVE ship that was PVP worthy was what 2009.

Just not my cup of tea unless they can fix the current game they are running instead of adding more stuff they don't finish. Incursions are crap they lock down random sov systems and its forced PVE. They need to rethink things.

Posted: Jun 10th 2011 11:51PM Nhoj1983 said

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@Tweakalvos
Well as a non eve player myself.. more or less not because I think it inferior in any way.. it's just that without a real avatar you just are... a ship.. there's no real point of connection.

I think this update is for players like me. It really does make me look twice.. if not three times. I think that's what they're trying to do.. build on what they already have and I think (looking from the outside) it's an great idea. Now let's see how they pull it off.

Not sure about Dust.. I really think they should have put it on the pc as well. I've got a PS3 so if it's any good I'll be able to join in.. but there's a lot of shooters out there.. not sure that ccp can compete.
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Posted: Jun 11th 2011 12:43AM Karth said

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@Tweakalvos Well, stopping something that have been developed or wanted badly developed its better that stop and fix the game and then finish incarna. So in the end if we want speed with the perfection of EVE (more that its expansion) lets this guys finish incarna in the way they want it to end (just like a band writting a song) and then force them to polish the game TO LEVELS UNKOWN to them, us and mankind... well not mankind but actually polish the game would make it almost making the best social videogame EVER.
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Posted: Jun 11th 2011 2:21AM Xpress0 said

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@Nhoj1983

This is one of my worries.
The idea of Incarna and DUST is great. Or it's actually pretty mindblowing when you think of it. But the way CCP is going to about it makes me think it's going to be very pretty and very useless.

Avatars only won't make a game. So you have an avatar, what are you going to do? Dress it and spin it around? Fun for about 2,5 minutes. And while it might initially attract loads of new players who don't "get" the current spaceship EVE, I don't think it will help them to get it any better. Incarna desperately needs its own gameplay in order to succeed and in order to attract new growds who actually stick after the trial period. So far we've been shown a lot of really cool tech demos, some vague ideas (storefronts, "shady dealings") and just about zero gameplay.

So after those initial 2.5 minutes of spinning your avatar/dancing at the mainframe - only thing to do is to get into your spaceship. And from there the game is exactly the same neglected spaceship EVE we're playing now.

I also understand the "long term" approach - what they're releasing now is just the framework and a tech demo, there's actually nothing to do in Captains Quarters. I'm afraid this is the wrong way to go. Start with the actual gameplay - then build the tech around it.

Sure, it's going to be cool to dress up my dolly. But when are we going to get a video about Sov reviteration? Fixing stability and lag introduced by Dominion? Supercap re-balance? And all the hundreds of damn cool *new* things they're thinking about adding to the spaceship game?

In 4-5 years once Incarna is finally done?

I don't want to be overly negative about things, but I'd really want to know what the actual gameplay of this thing is. Until I see it, I'm not going to be very impressed by dress-up dolls in space.
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Posted: Jun 11th 2011 2:22AM Khai mann said

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@Nhoj1983

I've always wonder if people like you, who are always asking for things that current EVE players don't want, will ever stick with EVE once CCP adds these new things? For some reason I think the answer is no.

Transforming EVE into a RPG won't make it better, it will destroy what made EVE so unique. I think people like you have a hard time getting into the game because it is a very difficult game to master, not because you can't see an Avatar.

I hope CCP can replace all the Vets that are leaving with new players.
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Posted: Jun 11th 2011 5:45AM Nhoj1983 said

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@Khai mann
I have great respect for the game.. and I understand that current players would definitely want a few things fixed before something they might consider "fluff". And I agree that any lag(as I understand it an ongoing issue with how the community is still expanding) or other parts that aren't working should take first seat.

My roots are actually in sandboxes and I've played with the idea of coming over the Eve. It's not that you play ships.. it's that your locked out of them.. there is no world outside of your view. I won't be logging in until Incarna is more fully developed.. so it's true just that cabin won't bring me in but down the road? I could totally see myself jumping in if they implement it well. I have no issues with flying the ships.. I just want a more immersive experience and this is what they're saying they want to bring.

I wouldn't want them to change Eve is.. but isn't it the logical next step? I mean.. it would add a lot if it's done right. I really doubt people like me need that much more to push us into the game.. I've heard the same from other people.. "I need an avatar" I'm sure that quite a few current players wanted this too.. done right.. here's to hoping.
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Posted: Jun 11th 2011 12:51AM Karth said

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@Tweakalvos Crap, I said something wrong (more like in the wrong way, my FAIL) in the post so reposting correctly:

Well, its worse to stop something that have been developed (or wanted badly developed) and fix the game and that finish incarna now and continuing everything else better. So in the end if we want speed with the perfection of EVE (more that its expansion) lets this guys finish incarna in the way they want it to end (just like a band writting a song) and then force them to polish the game TO LEVELS UNKOWN to them, us and mankind... well not mankind but actually polish the game would make it almost making the best social videogame EVER.

Posted: Jun 11th 2011 2:32AM (Unverified) said

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I love how CCP are staying true to their vision for EVE. It's always been to make sci-fi simulator. A living, breathing sci-fi world, the ultimate sci-fi experience.

That's what alot of EVE players are not aware of. They think it's just about spaceship pvp when it's never been about just that. CCP has always had a grand vision and they develop upon that vision once technology is available to support it.

I admire CCP for their vision and persistence to stay true to that vision.
Incarna and all it's future updates will immensely move the game forward towards that vision.

Posted: Jun 11th 2011 6:46AM (Unverified) said

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And another episode of "CCP unveils something interesting, vets whine". The plot is getting old. The Dust-EVE integration concept is nothing short of revolutionary, but yet we get the chorus crying because it's not the game from 2004.

Also, note that CCP has performed massive technical feats with both their hardware server cluster and the software to accommodate ever bigger battles and continues with the upgrades. Recently the largest fleet battle in EVE in its history went down and the server didn't choke. What people don't understand is It isn't infinitely scalable, and as capacities go up, people continually push the outer envelope on fleet engagements outward in terms of numbers. Which is cool, but also makes me question the logic processing centers of their brain when they then claim that still having lag is an indicator of no progress. (p.s. name me another game that can do 1000 vs 1000 PvP battles poorly or otherwise. Oh and on a single "realm" cluster).

You might have caught also the reveal of the bullet-time time contraction they are even now working to engineer into the system for massive fleet battles. They announced it at FanFest, and repeated here. If you don't follow closely enough to be aware of it, you are probably not engaged enough to provide thoughtful comments on it.

Posted: Jun 11th 2011 7:01AM Xpress0 said

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@(Unverified)

Please note - I'm not whining. I'm worried - it's different.
I love EVE and I am really genuinely interested in the gameplay of Incarna.

I'm worried CCP doesn't know, doesn't have a plan or is just too occupied with the cool tech stuff of "sci-fi simulator" to think about the *game* behind it. So far they haven't given us much (that I know of).

It's just that no one seems to be very interested in talking about Incarna gameplay. It's either bittervets going "mehh" or potential new players going "kewl!!". But they're just reactions to the idea of avatars.

But what the hell is it that we're supposed to do with our avatars? Do quests? Get new gear? Defeat bosses? Stand by the mailbox naked and dance?

Someone?
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Posted: Jun 11th 2011 7:17AM Xpress0 said

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@(Unverified)

And to answer to your other points -

I'm aware of the recent large scale battles - I've flown in them myself.
But the fact is, a lot of them are happening on the reinforced nodes which you have to report in advance. But it's cool, in battles of that scale lag is expected.

However, you'd think that flying a 20 man roaming gang through 0.0/low-sec would be smooth as butter.. not quite so...

The big battles are really cool, but the day-to-day PvP in smaller fleets is still not on the level it was before Dominion. They've improved a lot of things since then, sure, but it was only after the "18-months" incident they established the teams that are now looking into performance and small fixes.
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Posted: Jun 11th 2011 7:19AM Khai mann said

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@Xpress0

You get to buy fluff from the new in-game store :)
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Posted: Jun 11th 2011 3:04PM (Unverified) said

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@Xpress0 Thanks for a well-thought-out response. I will say I disagree in that I am seeing ongoing improvement in the core gameplay and slowly but surely addressing "fixes" (separate from actual enhancements such as a holo-UI). There is a dedicated team working on just game fixing and tweaking, as per dev notes and patch notes. Keep in mind a lot of the Incarna stuff by necessity uses a different set of devs with different specialties. And as a developer, I ca tell you there is a bit of a misunderstanding that development pipelines are linear, when they are multithreaded. Also, even with infinite resources, its not actually a good idea for an infinite set of (code) monkeys to tinker with the same set of code, so there is a natural size limit to 'Team BFF' (the team dedicated to quality of life stuff in space).

I would also point out that CCP has also done a wholesale rip-and-replace of it's rendering and backend UI framework for a new carbon engine -- allowing for improved future development of the space experience. This, I think, indicates (1) a level of dedication to keeping their game technologically current I've not seen from an MMO dev, and (2) that innovations created for one aspect -- such as incarnate -- have tangible benefits to the space stuff. This is not the first major backend/core engine upgrade either (Trinity).

I suppose I defend CCP because all evidence is of a company that, while imperfect and has misstepped sometimes, is actually exceptionally dedicated to their game, forward thinking and dedicated to their customers. I think companies that do that should be lauded and rewarded rather than flogged mercilessly -- vs. The majority of companies (in all fields) whose guiding philosophy is not vision or quality, but rather to do as little as possible to improve their product and still collect revenue.
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Posted: Jun 11th 2011 3:05PM (Unverified) said

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@(Unverified) "Incarna" not incarnate. Just noticed my system auto-corrected the name.
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Posted: Jun 12th 2011 10:46AM (Unverified) said

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@Xpress0
Have you actually flown a 20 man roaming gang in lowsec? It runs just fine, at least while I've been doing FW stuff. Only time the low sec started to cough and wheeze was during the "great kamela turkeyshoot" when there was about 600 players in a system that commonly serves about 20-30 people. And it didn't even crash the node, while yes it was choppy and laggy. And to my knowledge it wasn't reported through the fleet fight form, though a lot of people knew there'd be action there beforehand, therefore no reinforced nodes either.
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Posted: Jun 11th 2011 8:02AM Dirame said

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No one can truly gauge how Incarna will work until it is full rolled out and fully operational on all levels. This means the social environment must be in there before we can gauge whether it fails or not. As of right now I think it will work to bring more players into the game but like I said we'll have to wait and see.

And finally, CCP has a dedicated team working on fixing the game, you guys who complain the game needs to be fixed seem like you don't read patch notes or dev blogs, fixing the game has been the theme for the past few months.

Posted: Jun 11th 2011 8:07AM Zethe said

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People complain that games are unimaginative and dont innovate enough. People complain that they don't like the companys innovative new features.

People complain.

Posted: Jun 11th 2011 11:44AM Zyrusticae said

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@Zethe
Indeed.

Well, consider that the people complaining about the new features are probably not the same people who complain about a lack of innovation in the industry.

It just makes sense that there's a whole crapload of people on this planet with differing opinions and that they're all going to make themselves heard when they feel slighted, yeah? :)
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Posted: Jun 11th 2011 12:14PM Zethe said

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@Zyrusticae

Is exactly the point i was making, You cant please everyone. People will always complain nomatter what CCP does.

I personally like the idea of the expansion, new features are always welcome in my eyes. I can't speak for the majority of the games population however, none of us really can.
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Posted: Jun 11th 2011 9:25AM (Unverified) said

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I just can't get into EVE. At all. If I did roll in to check out the new stuff I know exactly what would happen.
I'd create a character with their fantastic creation tools. I'd go to my quarters and look around. I'd walk around the station a bit. I'd get into my ship...fumble with all opaque interfaces...and log off. Then I would uninstall.
This game is an acquired taste, a niche game at it's core. I don't think any of these additions are going to change that.
Hence the Dust 514 thing. They want to get people to participate in their that wouldn't touch it with a 15 ft. pole otherwise...unfortunately for the poor saps that buy it, their experience is going to be greatly dependent upon the wile and whim of the folks that play EVE. Nightmare scenario anyone?

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