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Reader Comments (55)

Posted: May 31st 2011 3:06PM Scopique said

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"You can vastly decrease the amount of time your group takes to get through tough situations by doing 15 minutes of research before you join a dungeon team."

Because not having to discover stuff on your own is the quickest way to the "I Win" button.

Posted: May 31st 2011 3:24PM (Unverified) said

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@Scopique

Exactly why we have a rift between folks who play the game religiously and get to end game as fast as possible and those who play it casually and really don't give two shakes if they ever defeat the 'end boss'.

"The reason FOTM builds are FOTM is that they're good. People have spent hours and hours of game-play testing and refining them. Don't claim you know more than experts who have put dozens or hundreds or thousands of combined hours testing and perfecting top-level builds. "This build works just fine for me" is not an excuse."

Sure it is, it's actually your fault for either taking them or not and not asking what type of player they are, if they've ever been in X place before etc. Party leaders need to know who they are picking up and if they 'cut the mustard' on the intended play style of the group.

I have been in some instances in lotro countless times, but I don't barrel through them at mach 8 if the minstrel is doing it his/her first time. I ask folks if they have done it and see if they want to rush through or take their time. Gaming is supposed to be fun, if you get with folks interested in the same type of fun, its even more so... if not... then prepare to be yelling or yelled at and ask yourself why you didn't communicate more in an MMO.
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Posted: May 31st 2011 3:25PM (Unverified) said

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@Scopique

I agree with this. I think it's ridiculous to say you HAVE to research something before attempting it on your own. It takes a lot of the enjoyment of discovery out of it for me to read every little detail about a dungeon before going in.

Not even saying people need to explain fights to me (even though is polite) but in the example given in the article the people just up and left the healer and started pulling. I thought we learned back at level 20 how goddamn stupid that is.
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Posted: May 31st 2011 3:30PM Neofalcon said

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@(Unverified)

The problem with this line of thinking is that you're not the only person in the group. There are anywhere between 4-24 other people doing this content with you, and if you're not using the "correct" spec/rotation for your class, you're actively contributing to the groups failure, and making the overall experience less fun for the other players.

Even if it is "good enough" and you still get everything killed, you would have accomplished this feat much faster and with much less drama/difficulty had you done a little research ahead of time.
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Posted: May 31st 2011 3:42PM Space Cobra said

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@(Unverified) with the Purple/Blue

I understand about the "I want to experience it" thing. It's cool, but it will get people wiped. You should realize you are imposing your failing on a group that might not share the same thrill of discovery.

This is best dealt with by either exploring yourself or just exploring for fun with a group of guildmates/friends or people who just want to learn/have fun.

You just got to remember your agenda is different. Sure, it's also nice to pick up gear as you do this, but it is a bit rude not to be at the top of your game. That's not to knock learning a dungeon, but that takes time and players wanting a similar goal as yours (exploration): It's just better to team up with such players than hope a group indulges you, which *could* happen, but many have gone through such caves many times before you and know the layout and expect you to do so.

Sometimes, you just have to be honest you have a different goal than they do. You want to actively learn rather than study up, but they have already learned and just want a clean-sweep with loot drops. Different players with different goals.
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Posted: May 31st 2011 4:01PM (Unverified) said

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@Space Cobra

But, realistically, what's the worst that happens? You lose a couple hours of time and maybe have to wait on an instance cooldown. Yeah, it's aggravating to wipe on hour four of an instance, but that can and does happen to top-geared squads that make mistakes. Skill should become more important in MMOs if we ever want to get away from that WoW model.
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Posted: May 31st 2011 4:29PM Space Cobra said

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@(Unverified)

Totally agree there. You may even laugh about it after such a wipe (or maybe the day after you laugh). There is always "Leeeeroy Jenkins"!

But some players are just focused on a goal and that's not to say "those players" are always focused on such gear-goals, but it may be the 3rd time that week or night they've tried to get an item and wipe out.

Again, you get different players with different sensibilities and goals.
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Posted: May 31st 2011 6:42PM DarkWalker said

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@(Unverified)
Sincerely:
- If in a PUG I meet someone who does not know what to do, and didn't even try to read the basic strats for the dungeon, unless he is a really nice guy, I'll most likely not intentionally group again with him. Going blind, when the whole group has agreed on it, can be a lot of fun; going blind in a PUG is, IMHO, a lack of respect with the fellow players.
- If I meet someone who obviously does not know what he is doing and refuses to read strategies, and thanks to that is causing wipes, either he will be kicked from the group or I will leave. There is no middle ground.
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Posted: May 31st 2011 7:41PM (Unverified) said

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@Space Cobra

The thing is, I go in blind - but *gasp* don't cause wipes, even though I'm the healer. I'm slowing us down MAYBE 5 minutes for them to give me a second to figure out which path to take.

I've recently "blindly" pugged The new Gul'gurub in WoW for example. I have deadly boss mods - and I'm a fine healer - but the people in my group just mounted and took off pulling the first group before I had even zoned in. They ran through the green mist without telling me to touch the cauldron (luckily I knew, when a family member told me)

But honestly, would it have taken all THAT long to wait for me? Maybe one person died the whole run (besides that fight with the insta-death whatever it is) and I was sure to let them know I was new - and they couldn't be bothered to mention basic things to me.

That's where I think it's really stupid I should have to research every detail, killing my one-time enjoyment of exploring a dungeon. It takes no time at all to explain something. And I'd do it for other people gladly.
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Posted: Jun 1st 2011 12:42AM Space Cobra said

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@(Unverified) Purple/Red

It seems to me the group knew the dungeon/instance fairly well and they were just in it for the run-through and loot and accepted you either to fill a warm spot or a "just in case" insurance.

I've heard of other similar situations of groups just going in and not bothering to wait for the rest of the party. Some of these do wipe or semi-wipe, but to them, it is more about doing the instance fast. Being a PUG, you may get players that may help you or teach you, you may get players that don't, or somewhere in between.

Friends and a good guild help, but yeah, but there are people of different goals and that just sometimes happens. I can imagine you probably were not too happy with going through so fast and exploring the dungeon, but they probably had done the run hundreds of times and just assumed you had, too.
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Posted: Jun 1st 2011 6:42AM Wensbane said

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Well, this is pretty much why I never play "tanks", even though I would really, REALLY, like to.
If I'm going to have to "research" every single dungeon and know every single encounter by heart, before I've actually experienced them, then I might as well just stick to single-player RPGs. Seriously.

This may very well be completely selfish of me, but hey, that sense of exploration is the main reason why I play these games and I'm not backing down. Not on this one.

Having to deal with "gear scores" and "dps meters" is bad enough for my sense of immersion. Now this as well?
I'm pretty sure World of Warcraft was never meant to feel like a second job, so I'm not "optimizing" anything here. Deal with that.

Lastly, as far as I'm concerned, you accept all of these facts as soon as you decide to join a pick-up group. If you're playing with random people, it's pretty much your responsibility to cast aside any elitist feelings and let others enjoy the content at their own pace.

If you only like to roll with the "GS masters" and/or with people who have gone through the entirety of WoW a million times already, form a private group and go nuts! Just don't ruin my experience. You may think you're entitled to do so, but really, you're not.
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Posted: Jun 7th 2011 8:18PM (Unverified) said

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@Neofalcon

Ignore the downvoters, brother, you've got the right idea. Some people just aren't willing to accept that they're holding themselves (and their teammates) back with that "how dare you criticize my choices" mindset.
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Posted: May 31st 2011 3:11PM (Unverified) said

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I would like to see more of a trend toward skill based games vs. gear for many reasons ... this article just covers one of them.

Posted: May 31st 2011 3:26PM Neofalcon said

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In my experience playing WoW, the people who just set a blanket gear requirement to get into a PuG are usually players who don't know how to recognize skill in a player because they themselves aren't skilled.

All the skilled players I know who run PuGs just look them up on the armory and determine for themselves whether they're good enough (usually by checking achievements, whether or not they have the correct gems/enchants for their class, etc), rather than just distilling it into some gear-level number.

Posted: May 31st 2011 3:32PM Yog said

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You have somewhat of a point. I stopped playing MMOs because I realized I raided to get gear and I got gear to get into higher raids and I got into higher raids to get better gear and so on and so forth. I found the whole practice absurd and was astounded that I had been doing that for so long.

Once a game with decent mechanics and gameplay comes along that focuses on something more substantial I'll start playing MMOs again. WAR was going to be that MMO until we all realized it was poorly designed and made.

However, in defense of people using gearscores, that's the only way to gauge someone's ability to enter a raid. Sure, some people with higher skills will be able to do well in a raid with lesser gear but there's no gauge for skill so you have to go off of the gearscore if you don't know the person.

Posted: May 31st 2011 3:32PM Ghostspeaker said

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I agree with you completely. Skill is, within reason, much more important than gear, and people should be striving to improve it as much as their shiny internet bling.

But there is something you don't quite address, the other big problem that often gets mentioned in these discussions. Other players don't really have any other way of judging whether or not you'll be deadweight without taking the risk of letting you join their group. This is the reason behind people not wanting to take less-optimally geared players on group hunts. Part of it is also because one of the skills needed to be a good player is knowing what gear they should be wearing. An elemental shaman wearing agility gear is probably not a very good player.

I'm not defending things like GearScore, but even such misguided efforts are based in a valid desire to know whether that person you're pugging with is going to drag the whole party down. Gear is one admittedly flawed way to do that.

Posted: May 31st 2011 3:32PM Space Cobra said

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I agree with all your points, Patrick, but unfortunately, you sorta have a reverse/inverse going on here: You say players should research and not assume they are good, but players as a whole only do simple research, so they will look at things like a "gearscore number" and judge a player solely based on that. Meaning, they don't research a player out or try them out.

I guess banks/institutions are the same iRL: They only look at your credit score and judge if you will pay your loan; This is particularly true of soulless, big banks. In the past, a bank would get to know you and your life and would judge you on your commitment/personal past with them as a customer.

So, it is a Nationwide/Worldwide symptom. People only look for the easy-to-see mark, be it High School, bank, or video game.

Posted: May 31st 2011 3:34PM (Unverified) said

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The pursuit to end ignorance is always an admirable goal.

Posted: May 31st 2011 3:43PM Kai Hohiro said

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What a great article, as an avid Street Fighter player I can very much relate.
Still miss the pre-AoS UO days where you could go anywhere and do anything even with generic GM player crafted gear.

Personally I've often had difficulty telling fellow players (especially when I get along well with them) when their skills weren't as awesome as they believed them to be, since those people also tend to be the ones that explode in your face when criticized in even the slightest amount.

Posted: May 31st 2011 3:48PM Sente said

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I both agree and disagree with this post.

I definitely agree with the general mindset to always improve and learn. But at the same time I do not agree necessarily with the approach to look up details about a dungeon etc on the web before - this kind of defeats the purpose when it comes to actually learning from the experience. And in such cases I am not there for the phat loot, the dungeon run experience itself is the main thing.

Of course, this requires that one teams up with people with similar mindset, otherwise there will be a clash and no-one will be happy with the outcome. If that is not possible, then either do not do the run or adapt to the majority in the team.

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