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Reader Comments (47)

Posted: Jun 1st 2011 7:39PM greatscate said

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Bedtime = everyone (autocorrect)
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Posted: Jun 1st 2011 10:17PM (Unverified) said

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@Tempes Magus
I think you're confused, mate. All the classes are hybrids in the WoW sense, but what this article was focused on was hybrids that have no primary role. Those type wont be worth a damn in this game because the way the stats and items work. Add to the fact that they are using the WoW talent system it means even if you're a hybrid class, which all classes are, you'll still be specialized as a pure role in the dungeons at the cap. Hybrids as they were in early WoW and in EQ just wont be viable in this game because it is going to be balanced around the idea of pure specs.

Make no mistake, this game is a holy trinity game. The way those items are built with the way stats are designed cement the fact that we'll all be forced to play as pures to compete in anything beyond the most simple leveling dungeon. Star WoW is going to have cookie cutter talent builds, rotations, etc. I don't think any intelligent Hybrid fan believes we'll see anything drastically different than what we've seen for the last 7 years with the only MMO dev teams think is worth a damn. It's disheartening, but it's reality.

We hybrids wont shine in a hybrid role. We'll all have to be content specializing as a pure role or we'll end up ignored and/or ridiculed for not being able to compete. This is the design Bioware has selected and for my love of Star Wars I'll deal with it.
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Posted: Jun 2nd 2011 10:33AM greatscate said

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@Tempes Magus

I really don't think YOU comprehend what a hybrid is... You're saying the right words, but your it just seems your grasp on the concept is not quite there. Maybe you should "un-confused" yourself before taking these arguements to personal levels.

"So you like being useless in PVE because another class can do your job better?
Or, do you like being useless as a tank because the healer can keep a DPS character up as the tank?"

I've got to be honest with you... This comment may be one of the most ignorant things I have ever read. It is a known fact that hybrids will not be masters of any ONE area of gaming simply because you sacrifice "mastery" for "utility." You are suggesting that no one should be specialized, and everyone should just be mediocre at everything. Arguing that a DPS can tank a mob does nothing but argue that the particular game you are playing is a SEVERE poor design. (I'm willing to bet it's WoW - but that's an entirely other story). Your statement is proof of nothing other than the fact that developers have no idea what they are doing.

MOREOVER, your statement is actually conterintuitive to your argument. BECAUSE many DPS classes have become so "hybrid-based" (i.e. - defensive based, Riftstlker alla RIFT), the balance between roles has been skewed over time. Over the years, people have whined, "I can't do what a cleric does on my rogue! etc etc etc" and developers have given the ignorant masses what they wanted without proper forethought... and suddenly, "classes" have actually become "hybrids-like" than class-based.

To argue further, (using EQ as an example) those people who chose a hybrid class such as a SK, Paladin, or Bard did so fully knowing they will be masters of none at the sake of tremendous amounts of ultility at their disposal. Yet, there was always a place for these classes because they all brought something UNIQUE to the group/raid. Hybrids were never gimped to the point of homogenization that they are in current MMOs. They all had something "no one else had," which made them, yes... unique. Class blending only happens when developers are not innovative enough to find niche roles for hybrids, and simply "just give everyone some dps, heals, and defense." ...Which is (unless I'm completely mistaken) what you are suggesting for the future of MMOs.

And then this whopper:

"The "hard trinity" kills fun and socialization. It doesn't allow people to just play together with whoever they want and have fun. It makes it hard for people to actually stay the same level unless they can always be online at the exact same time every time and always group for content."

I'm baffled. Seriously. Are you are suggesting here is that SOLO-friendly hybrid models are better for socialization, than class based co-dependant grouping? WOW! I think we get it: YOU want to play with your friends all the time, everytime you're logged in... but have you thought of why some people play MMOs? Socializing and world-wide communication is as much a part of MMOs as is leveling and raiding.

Early generation games were as much social games as MMOs, simply BECAUSE people often depended on strangers, which sometimes turned into life-long friendships. Pigeonholing yourself into groups ONLY with your friends because hybrid gameplay mechanics allow it, is somehow more "social" than being encouraged to meet new people and experience new things? ... Wow.

What you are suggesting is that hybrids will allow anyone to fill any role within a group, effectively allowing friends to group on their own schedules. Yet, the fact remains SOMEONE will have to fill in the roles of "tank,dps,heals, (maybe) cc" nonetheless. Boss mechanics would be chaos otherwise... with aggro volleying back and forth and so on. It just makes no sense. Hybrid systems simply solve little and create much more chaos.

The only logical gameplay a COMPLETE hybrid system caters towards is solo-friendly. And while I'm not completely against solo gamestyles as I grow older, we have to remember the core values of MMOs are based upon group co-dependancy and cooperation in the hopes that the sum of the parts is greater than the whole. Something the trinity has represented wonderfully for many, many years.

Posted: Jun 3rd 2011 9:06AM greatscate said

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@Tempes Magus

LOL - I understand completely and you contradicted yourself AGAIN in your own post.

"Either you need to make the entire game a mandatory grouping game or you need to make SOLOING POSSIBLE, RELATIVELY EASY and fun for every class somehow. That means either breaking balance or allowing a system like Rift's souls or WoW's second build to change roles when necessary."

Can you honestly say that soloing ISN'T "possible, and relatively easy" in almost every game on the market?!? If you can't - I'm sorry... but maybe gaming isn't the best outlet for you. We currently HAVE systems like this in place and yet, the MMO market is bland and boring. According to you, this is somehow a problem withing the "hard trinity"...

I think we can all agree that balance means NOTHING outside of a PvP setting. It has already been established that PvE needs little balance and only the co-dependency of classes within a group setting. Oh - I forgot... you want to be able to solo!!! ...in a MMO... In which thousands of people play... My bad. PICK A CLASS THAT ALLOWS THAT OPTION! And I already know what you're going to say... "What if that is not the class I want to play?" Tough cookies, I guess.

Moreover, is it a coincidence that "balance" was thrown out the window when Blizzard decided to allow Paladins and Druids to do everything from heal/dps/ or tank all for the sake of PvP balance? ACTUALLY - (last I played) Druids (as a hybrid) were BETTER tanks AND equivalent healers than ALL other classes in the game / Paladins were insane DPS and equivalent tanks/healers. Hybrids were actually OVERPOWERED.

However, your solution to this would be to "just give EVERYONE the ability to AS GOOD" as these classes rather than nerf away the "awesomeness" of hybrid classes. This is exactly what you are saying! How is this possibly good for the game? Because everyone will be muddled into one giant clusterfuck of a class rather than being unique and specialized? They actually already have THIS system on the market too... it's called RIFT. Which, correct me if I'm wrong, is something you wouldn't play because some builds are insanely overpowered than others. Whats the solution to this? Make that class! Everyone has the same abilities in this system... go play. Have fun!

As I've said in previous comments, I don't think YOU know what you are saying... you keep flip flopping on your statements. Originally you stated the hard trinity could never fully work in ANY game that is balanced. (I think it worked great in EQ, but hey... what do I know!?) Now, you claim the trinity works fine as a group mechanic but a pure hybrid system works best in solo-centric games (in which I've already stated).

Now. you would argue that if everyone had the POTENTIAL to be a good tank, dps, or healer the game would be more balanced and classes would become more "unique." This plays right into the hand of a min/maxxer (as I've ALREADY stated before and you chose to laugh off).

Using YOUR example, if we are presented with 600 points to be thrown in any area of character building, would people not place the maximum amount of points that allows them THE BEST POSSIBLE CHANCES of doing a specific job? I mean - of your own admission, specialized classes do "job X" better than hybrids, pretty much all the time. (Which is bunk considering above statements about WoW Druids/Paladins). either way, if someone was more drawn to tanking, they would SPECIALIZE in a tanking "build" and wallah - we have a tank CLASS. People who chose to have a more "well-rounded" character will run around and say, "That person can do stuff I can't... wahhhh... gimme gimme gimme!" Yet, it is their CHOICE to throw points in UTILITY rather than specialize in a particular area... just as it is the CHOICE of someone to choose a hybrid class in the hard trinity.

You're entire argument is based upon comparing classes to other classes in a trinity system. "Hybrids can't do X that a specialized class can." However, this entire time you actually neglected to argue what hybrids do well comparatively to specialized classes. What about that Warrior tank who can't heal himself like a Paladin can? You are only seeing one side of the picture here. Your solution is to just give the tank a heal and be done with it... I'm sorry, but it just doesn't work that way. Choice is a large part of MMO gaming. You would prefer to have all repercussions of choice be taken away and play in a risk free environment... I however, like that I must choose between X and Y.

This entire time, you have proven nothing other than the fact that you consistently make blanket statements about the "hard trinity" that are unproven and wildly inaccurate. You have shallowly taken the "WoW insult approach" when contradicted, time and time again. - "If you don't understand this then I am glad you are not developing a game, although your game would fail if you are because you don't understand what is necessary or creatively possible." - Come on man... Grow up.

Posted: Jun 4th 2011 3:53PM greatscate said

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I love how I'm the confused one. You make blanket statements and double back on what you said time and time again - but somehow I'm confused... I gotta admit I'm glad your done spreading such idiotic ideas. Ideas mind you, that got the MMO market into this current rinse and repeat solo fest climate to begin with.

If people enjoy solo mechanics so much they should be playing console RPGs and not ruining MMOs for the rest of us. This idea of "me me me. I want I want!" has simply got to go. It does nothing for the genre, and cheapens the experiences of those of who actually enjoy grouping and the innate socialization that comes with it.

Posted: Jun 5th 2011 9:59AM greatscate said

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Yeah - it's blue because you represent the cuddle-boy mentality that has ruined MMOs over the past 8 years. You don't want to work for loot... You want it handed to you on a silver platter. Maybe if developers gave your character enough power you can solo every end-boss in the game too. End-Game raid loot for all! Bragging about a blue comment is like being happy to be King of the Idiots. Have fun with that.

Assumptions assumptions. I was a hardcore raider in EQ and remember fondly waiting around and TALKING to friends / getting other things done while on standby for raids. Furthermore, I'm willing to bet YOU never had any experience ever with old school MMOs and take all of your "reasoning" from WoW mechanics... sure looks so from all the dumb examples you have used!

Oh - and what happened to not wasting another post on me? You obviously have no REAL rebuttals for WHY the trinity is a socialization killer other than stating you can't group with YOUR friends because your schedule doesn't permit it. It's an MMO - sign on, make friends who play the classes you need, and tada! - You have a group... The SOCIAL aspect of the trinity.

I know this means that you may not be able to solo whenever you want... *GASP* What a travesty! Maybe you would have to travel outside of the little bubble that is your friends list and the Dungeon Finder, but that would be too much to ask from today's player base, wouldn't it?

BTW - weak insults and name-calling is a good way to have people take you seriously... Good game, my friend. Keep up the good work!


Posted: Jun 13th 2011 1:12PM Zax19 said

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From my experience with Rift and Neverwinter Nights, the possibility of making a hybrid character won't work well in a competitive PvE environment (some people kill the boss, some don't) unless you can't specialise or unless there also are mediocre hybrids for casual difficulty and niche hybrids for hardcore encounters. In Rift there are only a few hybrids who work well in a group, but this comes down to different design vs. different numbers and the fast switching of 4 specs allows you to min/max even more.

I don't really see a good, balanced PvE setting with the soft trinity unless all the hybrids have "others only" abilities or in any other way allow for "combos", resulting in better/similar outcome rather than every player taking care of only one role (the SWG example sounds simply delicious :D ).

A tank might have abilities to lower the healer's threat while the healer has an "oh sh*t" skill for the tank. The problem is that the outcome is still the same, it's just more work/awareness - I guess that's what Guild Wars 2 is going for?

But if soft trinity wouldn't require the players to cooperate, to combine encounter specific parties/spec combinations, then it can hardly be challenging without requiring the players to min/max again.

There are several facts I need to know to address this (multiple skill tree specs? changing advance class? can I change anything in between encounters? Can you avoid playing a hybrid? etc.), but in theory, we could have BOTH.

If you take DDO-like dungeons, you could probably have several difficulty settings so that a group of heavy hybrids can still play together, while the more reward/fun you want to have, the more hardcore you have to be. Which in general means strict min/maxing.

All this is not so hard to do, the difficult part is to develop such a delicate system of skills that hybrids could still work at hardcore settings (with a lot of effort and preparation) for those who like to multi-task. But face-rolling every encounter in a soft trinity setting regardless your spec, that I wouldn't like.

TLDR:
Hard trinity (min/maxing) + hardcore encounter/party-specific hybrid builds + casual mode for any hybrid < < < Hard trinity + casual mode for any hybrid < < < Hard trinity only < < < Soft trinity only (casual with any hybrid).

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