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Reader Comments (47)

Posted: Jun 1st 2011 10:17AM Space Cobra said

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@greatscate

I've pulled back mine and so have others; we know what to expect.

For me, I can answer you by adding to one of your quotes:

"What we already know about this game is that it is going to be yet another, casual/solo friendly, heavily story driven, MMO with colorful cartoon-ish graphics... and LASERS!!!"

First of all, I like teaming and socializing in an MMO, but I am also unrepentant in my solo-sessions, and that's where story is going to come in. We are probably getting more vocal acting and story decision making than most other MMOs: Really, if you want to boil it down, this is KOTOR with an online component and teaming. And...I am cool with that.

But the *real* thing for me is this: Too many western-European Fantasy games on the market and not enough Sci-Fi ones. This is "WoW in Space" and... I am totally cool and fine with this. My love of Sci-Fi has always trumped Fantasy, even when being "forced" to play DnD by friends who would rather play that than "Traveller" or "Gamma World".

;P
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Posted: Jun 1st 2011 1:01PM DarkWalker said

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@greatscate
It's a Bioware RPG. I will buy the game just for the story, even if the MMO part is an utter failure (although, if the MMO part does not impress me, I don't think I will be staying over one or two months).
Besides, I flat out refuse to play MMOs that are not solo/casual friendly, and I love cartoonish graphics :)
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Posted: Jun 1st 2011 2:12PM (Unverified) said

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@greatscate

You're not alone....I feel the same way.

But it will be a disappointment to some and success for most of those who play it
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Posted: Jun 1st 2011 9:46AM (Unverified) said

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@Zethe

How about ArenaNet with Guild Wars 2. They are promising to shut down trinity altogether. For now it seems they are true to their idea,

Posted: Jun 1st 2011 12:56PM DarkWalker said

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For me:

- Hybrid all the way. The only two WoW classes I ever considered for my main characters were Paladin and Druid - the two classes that can fulfill any role. Knowing that if I want to try a different role I just have to respec and regear, without leveling a new character from scratch, has too big an appeal for me. The same will hold true for SW:TOR - I will look at the classes that can fulfill more roles, and pick one of those. The same is also true for other MMOs - I most likely won't touch a pure class, and I flat out refuse to play MMOs with restrictions on respecs where the character build matters in any way.

- I really dislike the combination of hard trinity and role restrictions on classes due to the fact group composition becomes the most important factor, above skill and friendship. In WoW, for example, if four friends play Rogue, Hunter, Mage, and Warlock, they can never be on the same dungeon run together.

Posted: Jun 1st 2011 1:15PM (Unverified) said

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As someone who has run raid groups, it is beneficial to have well defined roles for your raid team. People know the abilities they need to focus on and they know what is expected of them. Even if the classes supported less defined roles, planning how to defeat encounters would still require them.

In my perfect world people would play whatever class and style was the most fun for them, form groups, and then encounter mechanics would alter based on the makeup of the group going through them. This is completely unrealistic, I know, but it would remove all the waiting around for the non-DPS classes to come support the group. Some people love tanking, some love healing, but the majority love the DPS.

I actually enjoy having a class in Rift that does healing by doing damage without having to do much targeted heals. Sure, it isn't the best healer or the best DPS, but it lets me be a DPS role without feeling all the pressure of targeted heals.

My play style has generally favored hybrids, or at least classes that can throw in an emergency heal on myself or someone else. In WoW it was an instant chain heal option based on that hybrid's mechanics. Soloing is much harder when you can't do a lot of damage to things, but also when you can't call on emergency healing to keep you alive.

My perfect world would also see PVE mechanics and PVP mechanics completed separated. My biggest frustrations have been many incremental changes to classes because of PVP encounters between them. PVP is another area where the hard trinity isn't well suited.

Posted: Jun 1st 2011 2:02PM (Unverified) said

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Looking through these comments it really saddens me that this is what AAA gaming has come to. What I am hearing is a complete homogenization of RPG classic class roles, where there is nothing to distinguish one player (class) from the other. Everyone is on equal footing, everyone can compete, everyone experiences the same game, everyone has the same gear, shares the same stats, and so on and so on.....really am I the only person who sees this as being grossly pathetic?

What happened to having distinct classes, each with a very unique way of fulfilling its role? We have substituted this for the luxury of having what we want NOW (when we want it). Yet this is what the beauty of a real MMO was....Certain roles that were not as popular or played as much as others became rare commodities, these people became known throughout the community. Tanks/healers became friends to everyone, and you knew not to tick them off least you be blacklisted/ignored. The distinctiveness wasnt just limited to dps/healer/tank you had dps/puller(scout)/tank/CC/mana rejuv/healer/buffer.

So is this what it has come to? A generation that was handed everything (the tools to make their lives easier) demand a game where no actual thought process is required (other than what a chimp could perform). Instead of being someone who stands out and recognizing those who stand out through hard work and dedication, we demand to drag those people down so that we all can have an equal experience. Damn the person who wants to heal, the role no one loves to do, instead of respecting these people, lets make it so everyone can heal, thus my gameplay doesnt depend on others in a MMO environment. Damn the class that can out dps me in a raid, his dps needs to be dumbed down so I can fulfill the same role. Damn the class that has a unique buff, every class should have that unique buff so I dont have to rely on people who play that class. Where does it stop? Eventually you end up with 1 class with 8 different names....

Posted: Jun 1st 2011 7:01PM greatscate said

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@(Unverified)

Couldn't have said it better myself.... A generation brought up on me me me, and this is what MMOs have come to. It took what 7 years since of WoW for this change to happen, meanwhile the holy trinity has worked for 20+ years in pen and paper RPGs. It's obviously not the holy trinity that is the problem.. It's all these spoiled gamers who always whine for "equality" in classes when, when in core MMO design - CLASSES AREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE BALANCED. Specialization is the way to go. It promotes a good codependant community environment and limits antisocial behaviors...
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Posted: Jun 1st 2011 8:06PM (Unverified) said

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@Tempes Magus

Dont make it personal and dont think a post is attributed to you....I made a very clear observation, one that many others like myself have seen with not only this genre (MMOs), but with video games in general over the past 8 years.

1. The holy trinity design had nothing to do with the homogenization of classes, introducing hybrids into that design is what has caused the smearing of class distinction.
- Assuming you play WoW I will use it as an example. Vanilla WoW introduced the 3 "specialization" approach to class roles while this was a good idea, it was still just an idea and should of never been thrown into a MMO without years of testing and tweaking.
- At first it allowed classes such as healers/tanks to level to max with much ease with the use of their secondary role....but when it came to end game these classes were bottle-necked into one specialization and while each class was very distinct from the other (i.e. druid healing served a completely different role from shaman/priest/paladin healing). Players were in uproar that their secondary specializations were not up to par with other classes primary specializations (or their own primary) Thus began the long descent into blurring the class roles, hybrids complained about not dpsing/tanking as well as primaries...primaries complained about not dps/tanking as well as hybrids etc etc

2. Now you are talking about balance, which is whole other subject all together. Balance in pve can be obtained....example: you have 8 classes, each class has a very distinct specialized role one that only they can perform. There is pve balance. Easy...if you dont get it, then I cant help you.
- Pvp and pve balance CANNOT coexist in the same game which is why in the past you had Pvp MMOs and Pve MMOs.

3. I'd like to know what class based pve MMO you are referring to. I'll use EQ1 as my reference. Compare the classes of Enchanters to Bards......or compare a Rogue, Ranger, Monk, or Beserker.......compare a Warrior to a Shadow Knight......each group I listed here could perform the same role, but each class was very unique in how they performed it.

4. In regards to your last post, you have provided a perfect example of homogenization, the Rogue and Cat Druid have become identical classes each perform the same duty and each perform it the same exact way.....the only difference being one is called "Cat Druid" the other is called "Rogue"

Also to your response of uniqueness.....you are only describing visual uniqueness, which is an illusion. Doesnt matter if everyone looks different, if they all can do the same thing whats the point? If everyone is super intelligent and rich.....then no one is.

My final thoughts.....eventually this hybrid (homogenization) system will fail and MMOs will revert back to the old standard. Eventually the "new" gamers or the next generation of gamers will wisen up and figure out they are just playing the same thing over and over and over and over again. And people will get sick of being just like everybody else.
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Posted: Jun 1st 2011 8:08PM greatscate said

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@Tempes Magus

You are obviously talking PvP here man. The holy trinity very little to do with PvE gameplay. So while you're arguments pertain greatly to PvP game mechanics, they have little to do with the PvE based holy trinity. I completely understand your want for hybrid models in PvP centric gaming, however the trinity mostly applies to PvE game mechanics.... So your arguments are virtually useless to me and anyone else here you are preaching to.

A game cannot cater towards BOTH PvP and PvE without these arguments which is why PvP was widely held out of early themepark MMOs except as a fun timekiller add-on. PvE gaming has everything to do with teamwork and coordination an nothing to do with "my class can't do what your class does! Wahhh." So while you may grow tired of playing a gimped PvP class, this has nothing to do with endgame PvE play, in which the trinity works great. Always has, always wil.
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Posted: Jun 1st 2011 9:00PM (Unverified) said

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@Tempes Magus

1. The holy trinity did just fine without hybrids.....the new generation of gamers demanded it because they did not want to....socialize with others, depend on others, and they wanted to get from point a to point b in the fastest amount of time as possible. In the past a healer was NEVER alone a healer was ALWAYS in demand, leveling was a GROUP effort. And again you are playing right into my hand and the point I was originally making by saying things like this....

...... " People don't want to level a slow healer who has low defense and offense. They want to level something that is easier and faster, which tends to be a tank that can fight more enemies at once or a DPS that can kill enemies faster.".....

Easier =/= better

Stop thinking in the WoW age...MMOs have existed long before WoW and its model.

Leveling used to an arduous task one that too a LONG time....but that was fine, because everyone else was right there with you, and it was easy to find leveling hubs or make friends with people to level with (especially if you played a class that had a very distinct role i.e. healing, CC, buffing)

2. Holy trinity by definition, no, does not have 8 roles, but introducing 8 classes to that system you can (through creativity) essentially create 8 distinct roles. Again if you have friends who've played it or have time take a look on wikipedia at the various 14 classes of EQ and how distinct they were from each other.

"What if 2 of those 8 classes are supposed to be healers? Which one is better?"
- easy....again I will reference EQ (because its the easiest) compare a Druid healer to a Cleric healer, on paper the Cleric was the stronger healer, but the Druid was the more rounded healer......its been awhile so I'll try and remember here....the Druid not only provided healing to the group, but could teleport a group to a vast distant location, they could buff the group so they could run faster, they could apply shield of thorns to a tank to add dps to the group, they also had a few dots that could be applied, they could snare enemies, etc etc etc....each class had so many spells at their disposal and this is what separated one healer from the other. It wasnt so much the healing....it was what each class uniquely brought to the table.

- And that is true pve balance....no one class out performs the other....each class brings something unique to the group and in the large raid environment they are all wanted to bring all available spells/buffs/heals/abilities to the fight.


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Posted: Jun 1st 2011 6:44PM StampyIRL said

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I'm expecting a soft trinity for this game. In videos I have seen of Taral V from Pax East, the DPS jedi knight off-tanked, and the smuggler healer pitched in on damage and mezzing.

It also just seems a bit more Star Wars-ish to have a bit of variation in the class roles. It could allow for faster-paced, more hectic encounters than traditional hard trinity style stuff.

I'm thinking that much of the class variation will come from the vastly different stories, with less emphasis on class roles than other MMOs have. Anyone who has played Mass Effect or KotOR can clearly see that all this dev talk about story isn't just a bunch of hype: it's a core mechanic of Bioware games.

Posted: Jun 1st 2011 7:15PM greatscate said

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@Tempes Magus

Straying away from the holy trinity only promotes min/maxing and a copycat player base. We understand you don't like the holy trinity, but it is way better than a "everyone an do everything system.". That is the true lazy game design... When developers can't be imaginative enough to think of niche class abilities that make classes enjoyable to play, they simply just give everyone a heal, some DPS, and a defensive stance... How is this in any way freedom? Everyone is still the same... They are just simply way overpowered compared to the world in which you play!

Class specialization is the way to go... Anyone who ever played an Enchanter in EQ can attest this. Virtually no DPS, yet they had a niche specialization that appealed to certain players that made them damn fun to play. When everyone can do everything , game mechanics become stagnant and entirely to solo friendly.
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Posted: Jun 1st 2011 8:03PM StampyIRL said

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@Tempes Magus
I'm all for flexibility. However, I don't want realism in my Star Wars games. I'd rather it not take (days? weeks? centuries?) to fly from one part of the galaxy to another. I'd rather not have to take my character to the bathroom and worry about whether or not my blue milk is going bad. That isn't fun to me, and it isn't in the spirit of the Star Wars franchise.
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Posted: Jun 1st 2011 8:33PM greatscate said

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@Tempes Magus

What your suggesting has been done in numerous PvP Sandbox MMOs already. You don't need to spell it out for me - I get what you're suggesting. Thing is, I don't think you even know what you're talking about anymore.

You originally championed the idea of all classes being hybrids in MMOs, which is already the case in some games already (i.e. - CoH) and now you want an advanced AA system that does NOTHING to alleviate the class system "problem" which you apparently detest. If specialized classes are innately better at doing X (dps/heal/tank) than hybrids - than why would anyone throw their 600 points in hybrid abilities? People will STILL make "classes" in this system because they are innately the "best" combo of what that person is attempting to accomplish. I am willing to bet that there will be many "rogue-like" or "mage-like" DPS classes running around in your system even though players are afforded more "customization." This happens because people are drawn to min/maxxing in its purest form (to be the best at X) not because they are presented with a class and they want to optimize their gameplay....

The trinity works. Of course, it is becoming a bit stale and some innovations to the system could be afforded, but to simply say "go and make your own character" does nothing to fix the problems it may have. People will still min/max. People will still create "classes."

I respect your opinion on the matter, as it is widely shared by myself... In fact I posted a very simlar system as to yours on another blog not too long ago. However, while you blame the trinity, I blame stale game mechanics. If PvP is your thing (its not mine) - games like Darkfall and EVE have done wonderful things to move the genre towards the direction you may like, however, the trinity is simply not the problem.
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Posted: Jun 1st 2011 9:12PM StampyIRL said

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@Tempes Magus

Hey, I'm not against classless systems. But this is a news blog about a game which doesn't even have a release date, yet. We're just speculating here.

We know that TOR is not a sandbox, and it's going to have a trinity. I'm speculating that it will be a soft trinity - we'll still need tanks and healers, but that won't be the only thing that tanks and healers do.

I really don't think this game will be about class mechanics as much as character stories, anyway. It will be better to give the masses familiar mechanics that they can jump into, so that they can focus on and fully appreciate Bioware's legendary story crafting.
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Posted: Jun 1st 2011 9:52PM Larry Everett said

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@StampyIRL

As someone who played the Taral V flashpoint, I can tell you it is definitely a hard trinity instance. In fact, it is the basic tank and spank if you ask me. (It was a lot of fun even though it was pretty basic.)
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Posted: Jun 1st 2011 10:06PM StampyIRL said

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@Larry Everett

Cool. Can't wait to see some end game.
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Posted: Jun 1st 2011 7:30PM (Unverified) said

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I hate to admit it, but this game is going to be just like Warcraft when it comes to the way classes will play in pve. The easiest way to tell how classes are expected to play in a game is to look at how talent trees are designed, the way stats work,and how they are itemized on gear. Hybrids who perform two roles will be just as shunned in this game as they were in Warcraft and it's a shame. The German dev basically dashed all the hopes of those of us who like this style of play. By saying that hybrids would be "encouraged during the level up play" he's flat out saying that we're going to be useless in the hard stuff. Looking back at the stuff I mentioned before we should have seen this coming. Classes who focus on a single trinity role are going to be superior and they will design the dungeons around them.

Posted: Jun 1st 2011 7:37PM greatscate said

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@(Unverified)

How is it a bad thing for a Hybrid class to do "less" in comparison to a specialized class?!? As a hybrid you are sacrificing being specialized so that you can do more things... Albeit at a lesser skill. What do you want? To do AS MUCH DPS as a rogue, heal like a cleric, all while tanking a boss mob?!? Come on guys... Hybrids are the jack of all trades, masters of none. Quite simply, it's the price you pay for wanting to do "everything."

Would you rather bedtime go "god-mode" and be able to solo endgame bosses? Seriously. Get a hold of yourself here.
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