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Reader Comments (19)

Posted: May 19th 2011 12:11PM Rodj Blake said

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I'd like to add another role - Administrator

You need to be able to keep on top of all the paperwork to be able to do the actual leading.

Posted: May 19th 2011 12:15PM JuliusSeizure said

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Using highly successful public figures as a benchmark for comparison to measure whether anyone in a similar role is competent is rather harsh.

There are plenty of competent leaders who aren't successful enough to be in the media's eye, but are nonetheless successful at meeting their organisation's goals. Any decent guild leader easily fits into that category.

Posted: May 19th 2011 1:04PM (Unverified) said

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Does Graill440 really have 440 grails ? I think that's just wishful thinking.
Or perhaps somebody is too hung up on semantics.

How can you be okay with the term "master" but not "leader"? Leader is synonymous with manager , organizer or director all of which are perfectly reasonable to expect in even a casual guild leader.

What dictionary are you using where leader is defined by how famous or successful they are? Even if you're a crappy leader, you're still a leader.

Posted: May 19th 2011 6:57PM Graill440 said

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@(Unverified)
Nope this is my only one. as for semantics, it not relevant. The word leader is thrown around and has no meaning in the MMO industry, taken by people that think they have earned that descriptor, as i pointed out in another post the vast majority have not, only a few have, and those you can feel out through the course of time if they state they are in a game.

Using the catch phrase "by definition" seems to be the counter to any argument that states kids or adults playing a game are leaders if they run a guild or take a group through a game dungeon.

As for your attempt to state "even if your a crappy leader, your still a leader". No.....your not. Thats your argument to try and quantify your own lack of practical experience on the subject, again, nothing personal. Again, my observation to your post(s) (grin)

No hate intentened, and no belittling either, i have made standard comparisons. i cant stop people from thinking they are "leaders" in a game but i can type my opinion on the subject because i qualify to speak on it, you have the choice to read it or not. And remember, if it makes you feel good to call yourself a leader, well then, at least where i live its a free country to do and say as you please. (smile)
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Posted: May 22nd 2011 1:22AM mk87 said

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@Graill440
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leadership
Leadership has been described as the “process of social influence in which one person can enlist the aid and support of others in the accomplishment of a common task”.

Ok. Ignore commonly used definition. You are just a Thin Troll after all. (if you are not, then please buy yourself some antidepressant)
>>As for your attempt to state "even if your a crappy leader, your still a leader". No.....your not. Thats your argument to try and quantify your own lack of practical experience on the subject, again, nothing personal. Again, my observation to your post(s) (grin)

Heh. "Not a personal atack" after a atack to the person...

I hope you never talk about photosynthesis. Since you could try to "have practical experience on the subject". xP

PS: sorry for the lame english. Not my first lang.
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Posted: May 19th 2011 1:16PM Ravoss said

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I used to lead raids at the age of 20 in the early days of WoW, 40 mans. I had 'led' adults, military, business, all types, through the content. It has easily prepared me for a later life in business that I have today. I am a technical recruiter now. Because of my experiences within the MMO raiding structure I am a fantastic communicator. Able to make snap decisions and know how to be able to pass that info to different people within my sphere.

The problem is that people still see MMOs as a 'game' and not RL. But I have a message for all those that believe this. We spend REAL TIME in a MMO. We interact with other completing complex tasks with time crunchs and heavy effort and concentration needs. To me this sounds no different than any day to day task I do at work.

I am now the GM of the guild I 'led' raids for in WoW Vanilla. I 'manage' an environment where 50+ people relax and have some fun with people they know. I am not a senior guy in my office at work, but when I log into WoW, I am treated as such and act accordingly.

People who instantly shut down any talk of transferable skills from gaming are naive to the point of absurdity. We are human, we learn through experience. Each week I assist 50+ to meet goals and succeed in a virtual environment, how is this not something that will help me achieve leadership skills?

Posted: May 19th 2011 1:31PM (Unverified) said

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While you have a point, I don't think you realize that it goes even deeper than that. True leaders are soldiers in the military or police...firemen with the rank to back it up. Even then there are few people who are natural born leaders, in this world. Some people claim to be leaders and are nothin more than con men. *coughpoliticianscough*

The fact of the matter is, it doesn't matter what you do in your officer chair with your fake pixel character in a video game, you're not a true leader and for anyone here to delude themselves that they are a better "leader" than someone else in a video game is just childish and retarded at it's core. Go lead men and women into gunfire or a burning building and try to keep their moral up, do this every day for a half a year. Then you can come back and talk about leadership because you might actually know what the devil you're talking about. End of story...

Posted: May 19th 2011 1:54PM Ravoss said

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@(Unverified) My father is a retired Wing Commander of the RAF, my uncle was a Colonel in the Royal Marines. You speak of Leadership as some entirely mistacle thing, it is not. Leadership is a group of traits, exemplified through times of intense pressure where success is needed to continue. You say that leadership only has to do with life or death events? You call us childish? Retarded? All I can say to you is to look in a mirror mate. I KNOW what leadership is, obviously much better than you do.

I almost hate to do it but I suggest you go look up what leadership actually means, we will see who is being stupid (I will even help you out) http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/leadership
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Posted: May 19th 2011 2:28PM (Unverified) said

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@Ravoss Are you done?
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Posted: May 19th 2011 2:32PM Fakeassname said

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@Ravoss

... and yet despite your grand heritage, your getting into a pissing contest on a Blog site dedicated to online Video game news.

I personally prefer this definition of "leadership"

"A broad buzzword thrown around so much by every organization, everywhere, that it has essentially lost all meaning. (i.e. "solution" in the IT field.)

It is normally used by organizations to weed out people who don't think they have 'it'.

True leadership is actually an excercise in bullshitting. The amount of bullshit a person can spew back about what leadership truly is, is the best measure of leadership."

Good old entry #2 under "leadership" in the Urbandictionary.
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Posted: May 19th 2011 2:32PM Ravoss said

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@(Unverified) Great argument..
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Posted: May 19th 2011 2:44PM (Unverified) said

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@Ravoss I think Fake did an excellent job and to be honest I live in the adult world, I can't be bothered to type out a point by point of why you're wrong, acting absurd, and embarrassing yourself. To be honest the only reason i'm even dignifying your remarks with a response is because I on accident left the "E-mail me when someone replies" box checked, my co-workers are now laughing at you, good job, you brightened a lot of peoples days. Now i'm going out to lunch, so leave me lots of love for my co-workers and I to come back to.
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Posted: May 19th 2011 2:25PM Fakeassname said

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Every once in a while I inevitably run into this question from a new join:

"So what do I refer to you as: GL, boss, leader, Guild Master .... Sir?"

to which I calmly reply:

"Hey fucker" works fine .... look dude, I'm just an ass filling a seat that. A seat that -could- otherwise be taken by a prick.

I didn't set up this guild to inflate my e-peen, I did it cause I like having a community to play with; but hate dealing with some wanna-be overlord who thinks that the "kick" button makes them a greater human being.

The only reason I even keep the "leader" position is because there's a good chance that some asshole would eventually get a hold of it and start shitting on everyone."

Posted: May 19th 2011 2:38PM Ravoss said

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@Fakeassname Pissing contest? Telling a troll I probably know more about the subject than he. Not wise, but work is slow to day.

"True leadership is actually an excercise in bullshitting. The amount of bullshit a person can spew back about what leadership truly is, is the best measure of leadership."
- The definition from someone who doesn't get leadership. Take a look at national leaders before and after they come to power. Look at their ussually white hair and drawn complections. This isn't because the guy/girl has been bullshiting for 4 years.... now I am done.
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Posted: May 19th 2011 3:24PM Fakeassname said

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@Ravoss

They look like that because their PR team stops dyeing their hair and starts accentuates their natural age wrinkles: the teeming masses like to see their "leaders" age dramatically.
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Posted: May 19th 2011 3:11PM Chambers said

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seems like a silly conversation to have really, if you are directing people how and when to do something, helping them achieve goals that are part of a plan you have strategically identified and set out, if you are making decisions that effect a large number of people who decide or are forced to group under your influence for one reason or another, if your playing football, leading a platoon into the killing fields, selling more hot cross buns than any other store in the country, or killing raid bosses,you my friend are a leader.

Lets not get confused with what a leader and a hero are here ah? The captain of manchester united is a "leader" but i dont see him running out into the mean streets of serbia with an SK shooting neo nazi's. The head of a scout troop is a leader, but likewise i do not see him risking his life weaving his baskets each week.

I have never been asked "what do i call you" (like the the guy seems to think this question comes up every time) but if i was i would reply "chambers". I cant imagine how you would keep discipline in a raiding enviroment if the new kid on the block called you fucker when you asked him why he stood in the fire for 10 fights in a row.

Remeber; people who fight in wars by enlisting in there relevant countries military are patriots. People who lead guilds are leaders. If you lead anyone, by any definition you are a leader.

Posted: May 20th 2011 9:19AM greygriffin said

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I am a naval NCO, so I am familiar with being in a position of leadership in my working life. I also play MMOs. Leading a guild and/or raids in an MMO is undoubtedly a test of real leadership skill.

I found myself leading a Master of the BAF raid run in COH a couple of days ago - so what specific leadership skills can I identify? I had to brief all 24 players involved and ensure that they understood their roles in the raid as a whole and in their individual teams of 8. I had to delegate responsibility to each of the 8-man team leaders to achieve their individual sections of the raid. I had to ensure I had the correct team composition in each team to achieve that, and be ready to alter it on the fly if one team was in trouble and needed reinforcement. Lastly I had to, while still carrying out my own role (off-tank/dps), remain aware and in charge of all three teams in separate areas of the instance so that we could achieve all three defeats with the correct and tight timings to complete the raid.

Had we failed, it would have been *my* fault for my poor leadership.

This is exactly the same skillset I use as an NCO day in and day out on a warship. Know the job thoroughly, and make sure everyone else does. Instruct them if they don't. Choose the right people to do it, and delegate authority to the right people to help you. Be aware of the whole situation and how you are going to achieve the "Command Aim". Change your tactics if it isn't working, and use your authority to put those changes into practice.

This isn't 'buzzwords' or 'bullshit', it's how you _get things done_.

In addition, when I lead my ratings onboard, I know them, I know what skills they have and who I can rely on, and I can give them a legal order. In an MMO this poses an extra layer of challenge. You don't necessarily know anyone in your team, how skilful a player they are, or how much they are willing to work with you, and you have no authority besides the kick button. But you still have to take charge, or the job doesn't get done.

Posted: May 20th 2011 3:32PM Booyakasha said

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nice post grey

Posted: May 23rd 2011 7:51AM Transientmind said

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Honestly, one of the more important things I'm not sure how to qualify, but I think it's something along the lines of parent... I think it's selflessness.

It was drummed into me early in high school by our ex-military principal that, 'to lead is to serve'. You don't do it for the kudos. You don't do it for the loot. You don't do it because you're a control freak. You do it... because these are your boys, and you want to make sure they are taken care of. And you're the one with the skills to do it. And if that means organizing things, herding cats, motivating, knowing when to call it a night, and disciplining if necessary, then that's what you have to do to serve your troops and =get shit done=.

If you prove yourself to be genuinely uninterested in personal gain unless it's to the benefit of everyone (say, if you're the main tank and your survivability is key, yeah... you might get priority on that tank gear), then people will have faith that when you're making a decision, you're not making it because you want something... you're making it because you genuinely believe it's what's best.

Any guild member who believes that you're watching out for them, even if things don't go their way this time, is more likely to make compromises for you that they otherwise wouldn't.

When I quit WoW, one of the greatest compliments I had was my farewell from the guildies. One noted to a chorus of agreement, "Hell, I'd follow him =anywhere=."

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