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Reader Comments (37)

Posted: May 5th 2011 6:20PM Lenn said

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Le sigh.

Why don't they just let players start at level cap and get it over and done with already.

Seriously, is that where we're headed with these games?

Posted: May 5th 2011 7:06PM Jef Reahard said

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@Lenn

It's interesting to hear you say that. I suspect that if the devs had come out and said it will take a long time to get to endgame, there'd be the usual outcry of "Aion!" or "korean grinder!"

It seems they can't win no matter what.
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Posted: May 5th 2011 7:13PM hereafter said

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@Lenn

Agreed. Someone should just make a polished game that consists entirely of gear acquisition and dungeons/raids/PvP. Maybe it can become an entire sub-genre of MMOs. And we can be spared their lackluster attempts at creating leveling content.

Meanwhile, I'm still waiting for a game that makes leveling more than just checklists, text boxes, and paint-by-numbers objectives. Looking forward to TOR because of their changes, but hoping more devs focus on it as well.
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Posted: May 5th 2011 7:34PM LazyLemming said

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@hereafter

Go play Monster Hunter. There are no levels, no trainable skills. Every character is exactly as power as another. Gear and actual player skill is 100% of the difference.

In the end though, it still boils down to something of a level system. HR doesn't do anything but basically says you are strong enough to do X quest or fight Y monster.

I do however still recommend it, because even the best equipment won't make a shitty player like me any good. Player skill is very important.
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Posted: May 5th 2011 8:55PM paterah said

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@hereafter In that case I'd rather have end-game rather than superior leveling (TOR).
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Posted: May 5th 2011 9:04PM InkSix said

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@LazyLemming

I don't know if Monster Hunter Frontier in Japan is any good, but I wish I could try it. MH is fantastic.
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Posted: May 5th 2011 9:35PM Zenn said

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@hereafter

Mabinogi
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Posted: May 5th 2011 11:29PM hereafter said

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@paterah

Exactly. And I'd probably enjoy such a game as well. But when a game has leveling content, I like it to be compelling and meaningful. It's like when an FPS has a crappy campaign and tries to make the excuse that the multiplayer is the important part. Doesn't really fly with me, but ymmv.
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Posted: May 6th 2011 12:05AM Tovrin said

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@Lenn Well ... I'm not interested in this game. For me, MMO's are just as much about the journey than it is about the destination.

Back to LotRO.
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Posted: May 6th 2011 1:24AM Lenn said

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@Jef Reahard No, that's not what I'm saying. My point is: if a developer is not confident enough that the levelling experience they have designed is engaging and compelling enough, then why bother? Knox is basically saying: "we know you all hate levelling, so we made it as painless and quick as possible". If people truly hate levelling, then why even bother playing?

There must be a game before "end-game", but why make people feel like it's something they must do before the fun starts? The fun should start at level 1 and continue to and beyond whatever the limit is.
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Posted: May 6th 2011 3:37AM (Unverified) said

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@Lenn

That's exactly why i'm looking at The Secret World: no level so no artificial grinding and every one can focus on the content.
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Posted: May 6th 2011 9:00AM BGExorcist said

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@Lenn
Hope its not the fail Rift was. extremely fast leveling thru boring repeatarive quests and no quest rewards whatsoever.
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Posted: May 6th 2011 9:54AM Jef Reahard said

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@Lenn

Lots of people do hate leveling, as it's the same silly grind in every themepark MMO ever made. Leveling =/= MMOs though. I agree that there should be an engaging and fun game prior to endgame, but for me personally, "engaging" and "fun" don't belong in the same sentence with leveling.

Deep and varied economic options, social options like housing and maybe a LotRO-style music system, and player-generated story missions are just some of the things that could be done to spice up MMO gameplay. Instead, devs (and most players) focus on watching various progress bars, statistics and math, and the treadmill. It's a real shame tbh.
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Posted: May 6th 2011 1:05PM Caerus said

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@Lenn Leveling has a place in MMOs for one reason: separating skill acquisition. Dumping people in a game with access to all 50-100 skills at once isn't fun or a good way to learn how to play the game. Leveling is just... learning to play your class. At cap, you've "learned to play" and can start exploring group synergies and other methods of progression. I'm glad Tera isn't making the leveling process slow, because it shouldn't be.

TSW is still going to have progression of some kind, and I don't see why people latch on to the lack of levels as somehow separating it from other games in the genre - you still have to do /something/ to progress and acquire skills and abilities, and that's the same thing as leveling.

@BGExorcist I understand you didn't like Rift, but that statement makes no sense: there's no item types in the game that aren't, at some time, rewarded from a quest. To say there's no quest rewards whatsoever when every quest rewards some combination of items, bags, currency, and reputation is just trolling.
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Posted: May 6th 2011 2:45PM Daemodand said

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@Lenn I agree. If the end game is the game, then dispense with the leveling non-game and let people play the real game.
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Posted: May 7th 2011 3:32AM BGExorcist said

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@Caerus
No usefull rewards = no rewards at all.
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Posted: May 5th 2011 6:29PM Graill440 said

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Always felt that people with passion let it cloud their judgement to often, take the spin devs use frequently "I have so much passion for MMO's or we, etc, etc, adnauseum".

passion does nothing to make a great MMO, skill and technical expertise, coupled with someone that can tell a decent story and has an imagination and years and varied experience they can draw from, add a leader that can actually lead and you have the makings of a great team.

You take this team and then commence to creating the game, you dont create levels, you do not think about an "endgame", because with an MMO you want a breathing world that people will want to come to in their free time and also hook those *cough* "hardcore" folks. The achievement crowd can be satisfied without levels, its easy to do.

In creating an endgame or levels you set a self destruct for your title and waste so much time and resources on areas/things that will be used one time, you limit the game before it has started, why do devs use the level system? Because it was how they were taught, no imagination, avatars have levels, weapons have levels, pets have levels, crafting has levels, guilds have levels, you have to laugh at the absurd (a quote).

No title needs an endgame or levels to be good and produce cash, it just needs leadership, the ability to hire and fire as needed, the ability to tell a boss to shut the hell up tactfully, and a knowledge of an actual target audience, not some report from a third party contractor on audience demographics for your project.

Endgame and levels, will always be a cheap way for devs to make a game and so not worth the time to play it. Remember, their are always shooters out there to play, and i play them alot. (Grin)

Posted: May 5th 2011 7:27PM LazyLemming said

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@Graill440

All games have limits. Universes only have so much space, you can only do so many things with any given item. Etc.

MMOs basically use a reward system. These rewards are your character growing stronger, whether it's through better skills, more abilities or powerful equipment. Levels are really just a numerical assessment of a character's ability, so that players can easily group together to face appropriate difficulty challenges.

Even supposed "Levelless" MMOs still have a level system. They just measure more specific skills, or have ranks, or similar. You wind up needing 300 skill, or finish X quest to get Y Rank

I enjoy FPS games too, because the competition makes them fun despite the repetitiveness. It works differently however, because there are no real rewards. It relies on competition and the desire to win to create enjoyment, rather than a reward system (And no, I don't count earning experience in modern FPS. It's kinda silly for the genre and incredibly easy.)

Honestly I hate that leveling has become synonymous with grinding. I challenge MMO devs, make one where the actual act of leveling IS the fun part. Give exciting quests throughout. Fun challenges and things to do besides level BEFORE the supposed "end game."

Really, if it's just doing constant generic quests for X hours that you either can't fail at, or don't care if you fail it, what's the point of even having it?

Here's looking at you Goblin Suicide Bombs.
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Posted: May 5th 2011 6:30PM ElfLove said

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Is this game ever coming out? or are we just going to keep hearing about it for the next 4 years. o_O

Also Lenn I agree completely with your post.

Posted: May 5th 2011 7:51PM (Unverified) said

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Idk about you guys, but Aion HAS TO be doing very well if they DO NOT want more players. The game has been around for almost two years I believe and they STILL DO NOT HAVE A FREE TRIAL - even a 7 day trial!

They could sooooo EASILY double their subs just by having a free trial, yet they dont. And I cannot for the life of me figure out WHY THE HECK NOT? From what Ive seen and read around 85-90% of players has an opportunity for the friend-referral 5hr/10 level trial(whatever comes sooner) did not even bother downloading the game, since 5 hrs is absolutely NOTHING. So that just pushed more and more players away from the game because noone is going to bother with a game that doesnt even WANT new players.

So, any1 else agree that NOT having a free trial for Aion is kind oif ridiculous, knowing that some of the suckiest sub games out there have free trials, or at least minor 7day trials lol/

Anyways, S!

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