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Reader Comments (49)

Posted: May 5th 2011 1:07PM FrostPaw said

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So basicaly they copied what they did in WAR.

I just hope they didn't copy the AoE line of sight mechanics too.

Posted: May 5th 2011 1:15PM Nyan said

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@FrostPaw Yes. This is not reinventing. It's the same as WAR.
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Posted: May 5th 2011 8:05PM NeverDeath said

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@FrostPaw

Yeah it's Warhammer's style exactly. I wish the people who write for this site knew something about MMOs rather than just spouting off "EUREKA!" every time someone re-treads a path that's been traveled before. The title of this thread is offensive to me, as a non-idiot.
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Posted: May 6th 2011 9:41AM Unshra said

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@NeverDeath I will quote TOROCast here: "PvP is much more akin to WAR (if it was done correctly) which should greatly appeal to many of you whom I know are huge DAoC fans like I am. "

And in all honesty that is just fine by me.
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Posted: May 5th 2011 1:11PM ultimateq said

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I like it. I like it a lot. Because the "hate" or "threat" system really makes no logical sense. Hey look, a wizard is nuking your face off, and the warrior is barely doing anything to you, wouldn't it be prudent to take out the wizard and healers first?

I really like bold new innovations in game design, meaning that it's breaking away from the "norm". I am now a bit more interested in TOR.

Posted: May 5th 2011 1:20PM rhorle said

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@ultimateq

Threat systems are designed that way to make a game fun. There is nothing fun about every encounter having your healers and dpsers taken out fast and first. Realistic sure, fun? No.

Yes I know there are games that handle the issues without having "instant kill healers". But if we are going for "realism in combat" why can't I fly my spaceship into the fray and add some mobs next to the intergalactic bugs splattered on my viewport.
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Posted: May 5th 2011 1:57PM DarkWalker said

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@ultimateq
Not completely new. While I've never seen this kind of PvP tanking applied to MMOs, the pen and paper D&D4 uses a system of marks the "tank" (defender role) can use on opponents; the marks give opponents debuffs if they don't attack whoever placed the mark on them (and, to avoid exploits, both only one mark can be placed in any character at a time, and they fade if whoever placed the mark is avoiding combat). Defenders also get powers to prevent damage to allies, often by taking the damage themselves.

Which basically means Neverwinter Nights Online already had this planed as soon as the devs announced it would use the D&D4 rules :)

It's nice, though, finally seeing someone implementing it in a computer game.
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Posted: May 5th 2011 1:18PM postman said

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"Tanks have always suffered in PvP. There just never seemed to be a good role for them."

you must play a lot of hello kitty and free realms, or you are writing about PVP and don't actually PVP

Posted: May 5th 2011 2:03PM DarkWalker said

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@postman

AFAIK, tanks in other MMOs' PvP are only useful for transporting things (i.e., flag carriers). And, even then, unless they have a pocket healer, it's often better to have a healer than a tank as a flag carrier; he can heal himself.

WoW is a prime example; no place for tank roles in small group PvP (arenas), and little place for them in BGs, apart from the results of glitches (remember paladin tanks in healing gear that outhealed healers?).
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Posted: May 5th 2011 2:14PM rhorle said

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@DarkWalker

If by no place you mean "can't get aggro from others" then yes they have no place. But a tank still benefits greatly in wow from all the tanking stats and abilities to mitigate and control damage intake.

A tank is much more then holds aggro so things attack just them.
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Posted: May 5th 2011 2:40PM postman said

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@DarkWalker

i hate to break it you twinkle toes but WoW isn't the only game with PVP out there, and arena PVP is by no means the litmus test for class viability in other games .

Tanks have a very viable role in PVP for a lot of games, GA, AoC, SWG, EVE, Darkfall, WAR etc. Just because you cant press a button to get someones attention and manage their aggro like a mob doesn't mean tanks aren't viable. They serve a very important role soaking up damage, pressing the line etc, rally point for assist targeting etc. PVP outside of the WoWbox and you may learn something.

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Posted: May 5th 2011 9:02PM DarkWalker said

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@postman

I generalized too much on my post. There are games where tanks have different roles in PvP. DCUO's Tanks are used to nullify Controllers. AFAIK, EVE PvP uses ships played as a kind of CC Tanks to great effect. A few other games might also have good uses for them.

Still, in other games tanks in PvP are usually just tougher and less efficient DPSers. Their unique ability - making the enemy focus on them - work only in PvE.

They are useful whenever someone who can't hit well, but is hard to take down, is useful - usually to capture or transport things. Otherwise, they mostly are just bad hitting DPSers.

More so because any non-blind enemy will just kill healers first, DPSers second, and leave the more resistant but weak hitting tanks for last, since tanks' low DPS, high survivability, and, in other games, inability to shield teammates in any significant way mean opponents need to cause much more damage to tanks to remove the same amount of menace when compared with attacking healers and DPSers.

(And developers are not crazy enough to, given the almost identical PvP roles played by tanks and DPSers, make tanks actually more worthy to take along than DPSers, since this would mostly remove DPSers from any kind of competitive PvP.)
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Posted: May 5th 2011 1:29PM rhorle said

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Is having a separate set of armor a bad thing though? PvP should require separate sets to be competitive. Because PvE and PvP focus on different aspects, and different stats.

Sure it can all be done with one, but two allows for so much more potential in gearing and having competitive PvP. And stops confusing things of the same stat doing something different when "pvping".

the only thing a second set sucks for is when you want to get into PvP and don't have any gear. But WoW has solved that problem in a decent way. By offering basic gear easy to come by and competitive and "higher content" gear.

Posted: May 5th 2011 2:05PM DarkWalker said

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@rhorle

In my case, a separate set of armor makes me unwilling to even try PvP. I won't start playing if the older players have simply more powerful characters.

Which is why the only MMOs I do PvP are DCUO (and, even then, only in Legend PvP) and GW.
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Posted: May 5th 2011 2:16PM rhorle said

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@DarkWalker

Even if one set of armor is used for PVE and PvP you will still have people that have better characters then you. That is what you get in a gear-based character advancement model. And TOR will have gear drops and upgrades that not everyone will be handed to just for logging in.
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Posted: May 5th 2011 3:56PM eyeball2452 said

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@DarkWalker

I agree.

I generally hate MMO PvP for two reasons. The first, inherent unbalanced gameplay. Losing to get better gear, just to beat up on other players who have lesser gear is a flawed game design. I thought MW2 was the closest system that I've seen to one that rewards people for playing, but keeps players characters on relatively equal footing.

The second is the stealth/surprise mechanic where if you get the jump on someone, that person dies. One shotting and stun locking players may be fun for one side, but it's not for the player who had no chance to defend themselves in the fight. The more tactical PvP in TOR at least sounds somewhat interesting in that I might give it a try.

As for the article, the tank mechanic basically sounds like a modified buff system, which is fine by me, but it's not new? I didn't play WAR, but it sounds like an old JRPG mechanic I saw a while back.
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Posted: May 5th 2011 8:43PM DarkWalker said

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@rhorle

I know.

I also foresee that I will avoid it's PvP altogether. It does not matter if it's the best PvP experience in the world; if one side has a handicap - such as happens with any PvP with gear rewards - I won't be playing, except if I feel forced to.

And if I feel forced to participate, you really don't want me on your team. If I'm doing PvP because I wanted to, I will do my best and be as helpful and nice as possible; if I'm doing PvP because the game forces me to do it in order to get something not PvP-related, I will be as unhelpful and nasty as I can get while still working towards my objective.

The only ways for me to participate in SW:TOR PvP would be either:
- To have pre-made characters we could just slip into. They would need to be fairly similar in efficiency with well developed PvP characters, though.
- To have either a PvP-exclusive spec or to be assured all PvE-focused specs would also do well on PvP, and have PvP gear either extremely easy to come by or the PvP tweaked to make gear unimportant.
- To have some kind of fairly balanced (faction-wise) PvP where I could just slip into and get out whenever I wanted, and where getting into it ungeared and in a PvE spec would not hamper my side in any way.

What I will definitely not do:
- Spend game resources respeccing for PvP, or reduce my PvE efficiency by taking PvP talents. If I have two specs, they will be for different PvE roles. With three or four specs, I might set one aside for PvP.
- Spend effort collecting PvP gear.

Which is why I only play PvP in DCUO (Legend, where we use pre-made characters, so my six fully PvE specced and geared characters are not a hindrance) and GW (standard gear, free respecs).

TL:DR version: I won't, ever, dedicate effort to PvP. If I can just jump in and begin playing PvP, without being handicapped by using PvE spec/gear, I will at least try it. If it takes any kind of noticeable dedication to prepare/gear a character for PvP, I'm out and will probably not even look back.
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Posted: May 5th 2011 1:41PM Dunraven said

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After reading this I am actually considering PVPing in TOR

Posted: May 5th 2011 1:43PM tmarg said

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Really, at this point, we should be trying to move away from having a tank role, not "reinventing" it (not that anything he mentioned sounds particularly original).

The whole tanking thing is stale, unrealistic, and we have obviously seen that the vast majority of people don't enjoy playing it.

Posted: May 5th 2011 2:05PM Threecubed said

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@tmarg
"The whole tanking thing is stale, unrealistic,"

And yet in games where you do tank, you're shooting fireballs out of your hands or summoning demons or all sorts of unrealistic things. Saying tanking is unrealistic is pointless, when you really mean "I don't like it".

I'm almost always a tank in MMOs, there are plenty of people who love the role, and it's not any more stale than a healer or a damage dealer. In fact, damage dealer is the most over-done role of them all, any game with violence of any significance has a damage dealer type. Why don't we hear people wanting them to be more compelling?

As far as tanks in PvP, I'm really glad. The only PvP as a tank I've been able to do in say, WoW, was "giant botfly" style play, where I get up in someone's grill, as it were, and just bother them for a couple minutes.

I know WAR did something very much like it, and I've only heard good things about WARs PvP systems (class balance being another issue).
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