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Reader Comments (188)

Posted: May 3rd 2011 1:16PM Platapus said

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I have to say you pretty much got it right. I personally don't hate griefers. I just pity them.

Posted: May 3rd 2011 4:31PM PrimeSynergy said

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@Platapus

I'm with you. The fact griefers have to ruin somebody's fun just so they can have any says more than enough.
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Posted: May 3rd 2011 1:29PM KaynTragus said

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I must say, as an EVE pilot in a highsec war corp, I must disagree with your idea that there is no real difference to griefing someone in EVE, and being a similar person in real life, much as we might declare war on small mining corps for fun and kills, I wouldn't even dream of going out and beating up small children or stealing their things, or other acts that would be similar in real life.

There's a BIG difference to me between griefing someone in a game, and doing similar things in real life.

Also, I think you'll find the reason a lot of new players get griefed in EVE is because they (in my experience) Take every comment towards them as a slight, and will make loud (And unbelievable) threats to older players.

Just in the last few weeks I've had our corp declare war on one corp due to a four day old player of theirs shouting racial slurs and proclaiming that he would attack us in a battlecruiser, and another player who after I refused to steal from him when he tried to bait me due to him being 5 days old, call me names and insult me because I mentioned he was a new player and would not have beaten me.

Perhaps if there was less of that attitude in the game, people would not decide to attack newer or weaker players so much.

Posted: May 3rd 2011 2:00PM justinkhen said

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@KaynTragus

Noted, but completely irrelevant to this article. You're talking about revenge/conflict...not making someone's life miserable to get your kicks...
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Posted: May 3rd 2011 2:10PM justinkhen said

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@justinkhen

EDIT* Not completely irrelevant (my apologies), but it definitely is a different scenario.
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Posted: May 3rd 2011 2:16PM KaynTragus said

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@justinkhen

Ah, but all of these players that are then wardecced then complain that we're griefing them, saying that they've done nothing to deserve it. I would say that a lot of conflict in games that's termed griefing is often similar.

Also, my corp will also go to war with weaker players to see what kind of reaction we get, and steal from newer players, it still doesn't mean that I would do a similar thing in reality.
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Posted: May 3rd 2011 2:27PM justinkhen said

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@KaynTragus

"and steal from newer players"

Then why do it if not to get your kicks or to prove your superiority to yourself (or someone else)? I agree with the author...you can't separate in-game and real-life when you're discussing motivations and reasons behind the actions.

(And just as a note, this type of psychological study shouldn't be limited to MMORPGs...take a look at some of the most popular single-player games in the last few years...Grand Theft Auto anyone?)
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Posted: May 3rd 2011 3:01PM KaynTragus said

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@justinkhen

The problem with this argument is that I do not feel superior to the newer player, if they had no chance to beat me, what is there to feel superior about?

Applying the rules and moralities of the real world into a game like EVE online, simply does not work. The position one is put into in EVE online is that of a Capsuleer, and anyone who tries to get that far in the game without taking advantage of other players (Be it in killing them, stealing from them, or simply selling their wares for more than their worth, or buying for less, it's still exploiting the newer players, not to feel superior, but because unless you really enjoy just helping people all the time, it will take an extremely long time to get anywhere without doing so.

The game is advertized as a game where this can, and likely will happen, and any lapse in judgement will cause you to be taken advantage of, if the moment someone does this to you (for instance, if I steal from a player because they dropped a jetcan) you cry griefer, then it makes as much sense to me as going into a battleground on a game like WoW and complaining that I'm being killed, no-one forced me to do it, the game tells you the risks of the action, and if you do it anyway, then dealing with the consequences is just another part of the game...

Sorry, I seem to have rambled a little off topic there, but to finish, in a game like GTA, (I know, it's singleplayer, so it's different) you kill people, in EVE, I kill people, and yes, they lose their ship. However, they also learn the dangers of mining into a can. Someone in this thread said it was as if you lost all your high tier raid armor in WoW, when it's usually more like the equivalent of a few gold.

... I'll just stop, before I keep rambling :S
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Posted: May 3rd 2011 3:15PM KaynTragus said

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@Tempes Magus

The problem with this line of thought is that real life is serious, and as you said, there are rules and laws against doing this kind of thing

However, in the great game of internet spaceships, there are not, infact, it's encouraged. You might say that the newer players don't know the rules, however, warnings are given, repeatedly, and it should not rest on my head, to make sure that other people find out the rules of the game they are playing. In another reply you sent you compared it to an fps. If I join an fps game expecting to NOT be shot, should the other team not shoot me?
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Posted: May 3rd 2011 3:38PM KaynTragus said

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@Tempes Magus
I know I'm taking it to the extreme here but:

"Everything is part of life and governed by the rules and expectations of life."

So, FPSs are murder? No, of course not, you join the FPS knowing that the aim is to kill or be killed

So, when you join EVE, where the aim is to make isk in ANY WAY possible, including stealing and killing other players. You can't join eve expecting fun and for people to ignore you, just as you can't join an FPS to complete map objectives and expect no-one to attack you, it's just as much part of the game for players to kill you in EVE and derive their fun from that (serious or otherwise) as it is for you to mine, or mission, or whatever.

Now, if this was a game like WoW, and a level 85 was going to starter zones and killing level 1 players, that would be a different matter, as that's

a) Not gaining them anything at all, other than the annoyance of others
and b) Not a part that the game warns you about or tells you may happen, it's not something the game was made with in mind, or anything like that, and I find it to be a completely different matter.
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Posted: May 3rd 2011 4:01PM KaynTragus said

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@Tempes Magus

You may not know this, but EVE is based in a situation of cold war and active war between NPC and Player based factions alike, So, is it okay to kill those people now?

What if I declare war on them with my own corp? Is it now not murder or griefing but simply acceptable casualties?
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Posted: May 3rd 2011 4:24PM KaynTragus said

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@Tempes Magus

There are wars within the factions as well as without, and corporations are practically nations within themselves (At least, in the background information of the game, which is where most of the real inter NPC action takes place) The faction you pick in eve is merely your birthplace, not your alliance.

And if a corp were to somehow to steal from EVERYONE nearby, and make them leave.... well yes, they would need to do the work themselves, that's right, or more likely, they would form an alliance with a mining corp, removing competition from the area and keeping them safe.

Griefing like all other actions in EVE can have reprecussions, be they good or bad for both sides, I've griefed many people who have remained civil afterwards, and shortly after joined my corp and have enjoyed doing the things we do that aren't griefing, they mine for us, we buy the ore and build them ships, whatever, simply because we once killed them has not broken their ability to play the game, andhas introduced them to new elements within it.

As I said before, EVE really wasn't the best MMO to mention as wars, griefing, and such are all part of it

If it annoys you because it seems against the background of the game, the only thing I find difficult to believe in the game is that any capsuleer as they're depeicted in the writing about the game would EVER work with another.

There are plenty of ways to avoid griefing in EVE, and your chances of simply having someone come up and gank you are remarkably low, and will be dealt with by the "Space Police". But if you ignore the mechanics of the game, and simply assume you'll be safe because "people should be nice because they're nice in real life!" Well...

Enjoy your complimentary 1 tritanium
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Posted: May 3rd 2011 4:51PM KaynTragus said

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@Tempes Magus

"If somebody comes up and destroys your freighter and steals your stuff then there are no consequences, right?"

Wrong.

You seem to have some misconceptions about EVE, and as to what is and isn't possible. If someone comes up and blows up my frieighter, CONCORD will arrive and destroy them, and any other ship they undock in for 15 minutes, infact, they will likely be destroyed before they manage to kill me, as concord arrives with overwhelming force the moment he agresses.

If he has stolen from me AND I CHOOSE TO AGGRESS, then he may return fire with no consequences, however, in order to steal from me I must knowingly place my items in a can which you are warned may be stolen from.

Bounties may be placed upon my head if I have a negative security status (i.e. I have committed a crime) And other players may destroy me and collect on it.

And nowhere did I say that I killed a player working for me, I said I killed a player, who saw that if he joined us he could use us for protection, he's worked for me ever since I killed him, and I've protected him since he joined our corp.

If you've got any questions about the mechanics of EVE, feel free to ask, as you seem to have a few misunderstandings about how things work in the game.
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Posted: May 3rd 2011 5:36PM KaynTragus said

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@Tempes Magus

Oh I agree that it isn't pleasant to lose things in a game, and that many games have no consequences. I just felt that I needed to defend EVE a little, as the article seems to focus on it a lot, while I feel it would have been better served with a game like WoW or Aion

(Admittedly in WoW you don't lose much at all, but in Aion you can lose Abyss points, which for newer players can be difficult to obtain)

I certainly understand the points you were making, and I don't disagree at all, however just as some people gain their fun from one thing, some griefers gain their fun from griefing, and despite what this article implies, there is not always some great reason or trauma that makes them grief, just as you need no great reason to like a sport, or painting, or any other recreational activity. Yes it may hurt others, but it's easy to forget that behind a screen.
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Posted: May 5th 2011 12:26PM Djinn said

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@KaynTragus

"Also, my corp will also go to war with weaker players to see what kind of reaction we get, and steal from newer players, it still doesn't mean that I would do a similar thing in reality."

You are doing it "in reality". As Jef said - there are real people behind their characters and you are picking on them just because you can. You are being a bully and if you think that has no effect on RL you are deluded.
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Posted: Jun 10th 2011 12:23AM Wizardling said

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@KaynTragus Eve is supposed to be a sandbox. Thus my expectations can be whatever I like, and a jerk is still a jerk because they chose to be. Nobody else made them act that way.
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Posted: Jul 8th 2011 5:43AM Ubiquitousnewt said

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@KaynTragus
"your chances of simply having someone come up and gank you are remarkably low"
Bullshit. In fact, if you wait around long enough, the probability approaches 100%. Sit in an asteroid belt in a 200mil ISK hulk long enough...I don't care what the sec rating of the system is, be it 0.0 or 1.0...and some asshat will eventually roll up in a 5mil fit cruiser and gank you, because that's the kind of place Eve is - there are very rich, very powerful, very sadistic assholes in New Eden that have nothing better to do than hurt themselves a little bit to hurt you far more, because that's how they like to spend their free time. Go figure.
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Posted: May 3rd 2011 1:31PM ThaneUlfgar said

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Griefers= fat kids getting revenge for getting hit in the face with dodge balls.

Posted: May 3rd 2011 2:09PM justinkhen said

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@ThaneUlfgar

But (and I know you're just kidding for the most part here), it's so much more than that. I've been to college campuses and have friends of friends that appear perfectly normal on a daily basis, but get on vent and log into Darkfall and turn into raving lunatics who delight in griefing and ganking people until they get the response they're looking for.

It's hard, once you've seen that personally, to rationalize how that person functions on a daily basis. I often wonder what those guys would do if they didn't have a game to release whatever the hell is bottled up inside that causes them to do that stuff...
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Posted: May 3rd 2011 2:22PM NURBS said

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@justinkhen

Don't the neighbors of serial killers always claim in interviews that "so-and-so was always so friendly and polite"?

That's a bit tongue in cheek, of course - not implying that your friends are closet sociopaths. Just that you can't ever be sure what people are hiding under their calm, public exteriors.
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