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Reader Comments (50)

Posted: Apr 19th 2011 4:29PM (Unverified) said

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The problem in Cataclysm is that the rewards from the heroic dungeons aren't worth the headache of running them, especially for tanks. After a player gets his heroic dungeon gear and starts raiding, the daily valor points are completely unnecessary with the weekly cap. People were happy to run heroics in Wrath for the small reward of 2 badges when they took 15 minutes. The equivalent effort for the same 2 badges today is a long queue with a high chance of failure. Even if your group doesn't fail, the good players often have to cover the bad players, which gets exhausting.

Going forward, the issue is whether this bribe will be sufficient. It won't in the long run. Either players will find that the mounts drop too infrequently and not consider the chance to be proper motivation or they'll drop quickly enough and people will stop tanking once they get their mounts. The problem really is the content but Blizzard stubbornly refuses to make the game fun again in the vague hope of making it "rewarding" because it's challenging. I have yet to hear a player who feels the reward daily.

--A player who had four tanks that each ran the heroic daily dungeon in Wrath who now refuses to tank for LFD

Posted: Apr 19th 2011 4:41PM Nenene said

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I quit before Cataclysm came out, due to the threat of RealID, and I just never went back. I was a paladin tank/healer combo, and most of the time I'd cue healer, because tanking was just a lesson in masochism.

They've made design and appeal decisions pretty much precisely calculated to drive away old fashioned MMO fans in favor of drawing in people with limited skill and social skills, and the more abusive strain of casual players, and this is the end result.

Posted: Apr 19th 2011 4:53PM Skyydragonn said

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Tanking is only not fun when your grouped with idiot DPSers who go pulling things ahead of you becuase they not only want instant queue times but 5 minute dungeon runs as well.. oh and no wipes becuase they're rushing ahead of the tank or pulling when the healers drinking.... I tanked for 5 years in WoW, from Molten Core up to Icecrown, I stopped doing pugs 4 years ago and never once looked back unless i HAD to.

Posted: Apr 19th 2011 5:30PM (Unverified) said

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When WoW changed the threat mechanics to remove the AoE faceroll fest in dungeons and make them more challenging, they forgot a few important things.

A lot of DPS and Healers don't wait for you to establish threat, or even have a clue which mobs you've managed to gather up and make hate you and which mobs you haven't. If they don't want the tanking classes to have really strong AOE threat generation and damage, then they need to make absolutely blatantly clear which mobs hate the tank and which mobs are still hanging out there not picked up yet.

For that matter, they should make it so that DPS CAN'T hit their biggest damage ability before the tank engages the mobs. If a tank wants to do marking and ask for CC then they should be able to and not be in the middle of marking when some huntard starts pulling. The 4 other impatient people are the main reason why I hated doing PUG runs as a tank.

If there isn't a way for a tank to wade in and establish solid threat on every mob in range for at least the first 5-10 minutes of an encounter, then they are going to have to contend with people who can't possibly be bothered to figure out whether it is safe for them to Pew Pew or unload big heals.

If healers aren't protected from grabbing aggro for at least the first 5-10 seconds of an encounter, then a lot of the time those with less experience healing will cause the tank to have to run around trying to pick up loose mobs, rather than being in a position to control the fight as they are supposed to do. Bring back strong initial engagement AOE threat mechanics or don't expect many people to tank for LFD.

I would love for the idealistic view of being able to do challenging dungeons, things that require CC mechanics and marking primary and secondary targets to actually work. In guild runs, they do and those runs have been fine for me as a tank.

In a world of LFD, you should get over your desire to have those mechanics. Go back to the days of AOE fest, no need to mark or CC, faceroll through content, no need for people to know or play their classes, let them stand in bad stuff long enough to get yelled at to move, and give tanks lots of tools for aggro generation if they are in an LFD group.

Yes, nerf the heck out of dungeons that are available for the LFD crowd. Sure it makes things hard for people who want a challenging run with a group of skilled players. Sure, it makes it hard to balance class skills and power for PVP, but unless you figure out a way to make all those pieces work together in the same game, you may as well give up on the concept of hard dungeons.

Posted: Apr 19th 2011 5:58PM Borick said

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Weak analogy.

Tanking isn't 'good for you'. It doesn't promote better health, and it only provides gaming skill relative to systems which are counterintuitive to reason.

You can't just throw more icing on that cake, either. You'll demotivate your rational actors with vapid rewards until they become polarized against you and start defining enjoyment by whatever is counter to your design.

I've met plenty of people who, as adults, express hate for certain foods because it was what their ignorant parents forced upon them.

Posted: Apr 19th 2011 6:46PM Irem said

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@Borick
That was the entire point he was trying to make. You can't compare tanking to trying to get a child to eat their vegetables, and so it's ridiculous to try to bribe players in the same fashion.
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Posted: Apr 19th 2011 10:12PM EgoPoisoning said

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I've found the vitriol against this decision completely opaque. While the suggestion that it might make people want to -be- a tank rather than play one has some merit, the reality is that right now, queues can't fire without tanks.

And there aren't tanks.

Or, there are tanks, but those tanks have cloistered themselves with familiar faces (which is certainly their right) and want to avoid PUGS. In effect, these players are choosing a comfortable, known grouping experience over one with people running all over the place, refusing communication, failing to understand their roles, and so forth. As the game is leisure time, selecting a more enjoyable way of spending that time is the point.

With this "bribe," however, some players are going to decide to bring their tanking skills to the PUG. Some players are going to roll tanks for the purpose of these bonuses. Some players who roll tanks are going to actually be good at tanking; some won't. However, the chances of a PUG succeeding with a sub-par tank are still greater than most groups (extreme Huntering and such aside) succeeding with no tank at all. The chances of a PUG succeeding with an inexperienced tank who receives help and instruction from other members of the group is even higher.

Furthermore, the incentivization (second time I've used that word today) of tanking may remind some of the currently cloistered tanks that their role has an impact on the health of the game, and get them to queue up for a few random dungeons.

I'm not saying I'm oblivious to issues with rewarding a particular role over others, but I'm hardly able to match the disdain that so many players (not the article author) have for this approach.

Posted: Apr 20th 2011 12:21AM fallwind said

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@EgoPoisoning

ok, let's say you are right, and players of tank-able classes make a tank offspec to get these rewards, and other players roll new tanks just to get em, and I will even agree that some may be good at what they do... but let's fast forward a bit shall we?

Bribes only work so far as the person getting them sees a greater advantage in taking the bribe and doing what is asked of them than turning down the bribe and doing what they want to do. If the mounts don't drop often enough, those players who changed from DPS/Heals to tanks just to get them will no longer see any value in the bribe, become discouraged and stop. If the pets/mounts drop too often, they will rapidly get all the ones they want and stop as the bribe no longer has any value.

This is a very short term solution to a very long term problem. Many tanks have already stopped queueing because they "already have all the gear they need"... well adding new gear just pushes that line a little farther down the road, it doesn't eliminate it. So long as tanking, in and of itself is not rewarding enough to do the random heroics, you will have players doing only the barest minimum of them to get the loot they need.
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Posted: Apr 20th 2011 6:47AM Bramen said

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My rule of thumb for groups:
When I'm on my tank, I can't find a healer.
When I'm on my healer, I can't find a tank.

Posted: Apr 20th 2011 8:01AM Dread said

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I main tanked for years in 40 mans, 20's but stopped playing not long after Wrath came out. I returned in the last few weeks of Wrath and just ran as DPS since I never had the time, inclination or even a guild to 'gear up' before Cata came out. Fair enough, just wanted a bit of fun. Got into lots of Wrath zergs racing through experts as a shitty warrior DPS.

Come Cata I thought I'd jump into tanking once I max levelled and every fucker was just balls to the wall without thought and the wipes were hideous. I'm telling these idiots that you can't zerg these instances like Wrath, learn to control your aggro etc Come time I could flee to heroics and it was worse. These nubs were atrocious. Trying to blame me for their own ineptness. So I just went back to DPS for a week or so then eventually quit.

Congrats Blizz, you got what you wanted. A bunch of Ritalin popping 12 year olds cloth DPS 'legends' trying to nuke the crap out of everything on every pull.

Pass. Give me a call when you make the game a bit more grown up

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