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Reader Comments (97)

Posted: Apr 15th 2011 12:44PM Magnux said

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Yup, Trinity is not going anywhere any time soon. I mean if you really think about it, there will always be a tank, whether he does it with a shield and sword or a magic shield bubble its the same thing. If your a priest or what ever class and your getting beat on by the mob for most of the fight time after time it does not mater that you are X class, technically your the tank. Same goes for that other class that is doing "Support" if that is all they are doing then technically they are the healer or the DPS supporting the person getting hit. So in other words what they should of done was say we are getting rid of the trinity, now its a twonity, Control and Support, but I guess that does not sound as good as Trinity :)

Posted: Apr 15th 2011 1:04PM Nenene said

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@Magnux
There are no ally-targeted healing skills in GW2. There are no healers.

There are no enemy aggro generating abilities in GW2. There will be no 'tanking'.

You guys really need to get over it.
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Posted: Apr 15th 2011 1:35PM rhorle said

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@Nenene

There is healing. The GW2 website even says so. If its from a spell that directly replenishes health, or an ability that absorbs damage. It is still healing. To claim otherwise is just ignorance.

And there is going to be aggro. Otherwise what tells the AI to attack what target? A RNG role? How do you control that which ignores you? Do enemies just stay on one player no matter what is done to them by anyone else? The game will have aggro and abilities that draw attention or distract attention(aggro)

http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/combat/part-one/ (talks about replenishing health to allies)
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Posted: Apr 15th 2011 1:42PM cforciea said

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@rhorle
I believe he was getting at the fact that there are no abilities where you actually select an ally. To heal your allies, you will have to use a ground targeted or PBAoE effect, because there is no way to select a Ranger named Bob on your team and cast anything on him directly, much less a heal spell.
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Posted: Apr 18th 2011 6:54AM Dirame said

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@rhorle

When he says there is no aggro he means, a warrior doesn't have any skills that mainly pull enemies to him, the only thing a warrior can do is cripple an enemy stun them and continuously harass them to get their attention. The guys at Arenanet have said that the first determining factor for who the enemies attack first is proximity not some artificial shout that draws all enemies to one target.
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Posted: Apr 15th 2011 12:46PM Magnux said

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Still looking forward to the game not because of the whole trinity mechanic but because of all the other goodies that are going to be in the game.

Posted: Apr 15th 2011 12:49PM (Unverified) said

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The trinity is being viewed wrong. When we think of the trinity we think tank/healer/dps. In reality, what the trinity boils down to is 'person who minimizes the damage bad guys do to good guys'/'person who fixes the damage the bad guys do to good guys'/'person who makes sure bad guys don't stay around long enough to hurt the good guys'.

The trinity will always be there no matter what or else things will turn into a Call of Duty deathmatch. So it will be interesting to see how GW can mix things up.

Posted: Apr 15th 2011 1:16PM C Rose said

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I've been immersing myself in GW2 info as of late and the more I see the more excited I become.

ArenaNet is the first company who is FINALLY trying to push the genre forward instead of just being happy copying what's been done.

Check out some of the videos on youtube of the walkthroughs and I think you'll be blown away by the direction and also the art style of what they are doing.

GW2 I truly believe will be the next step in MMO's. In 5 years everyone will be trying to "clone" their mechanics and art style. Mark my words on that.

Posted: Apr 15th 2011 1:31PM Chiren said

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eh - the trinity is not about game mechanics - its about player personalities and human nature.

Healing - just because a person's character has healing capability doesn't mean they'll actually use that capability. That is more than evident with any of the so-called "hybrid" classes, whether its a FFXI magic-based job or if its Druid or Paladin in WoW.

Tanking - same thing - you need the mindset to tank, and at the end of the day, there is always going to be one archetype, whether its through class, gear, talents, etc.. that you want the monster to be beating on rather than someone else. And people who enjoy tanking will gravitate to that archetype.

Damage - this is a lazy term for anyone who doesn't want to tank or heal. Actually generating damage tends not to be a key identifier for what falls into this category.

Posted: Apr 16th 2011 2:03AM nagennif said

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@Chiren

And what if the skills are not there to draw and maintain aggro at all? How does this fit into your theory?
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Posted: Apr 15th 2011 1:39PM cforciea said

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This comment thread is amazing. I can only assume that people claiming that you can't avoid the trinity or that Guild Wars 2 won't avoid it have never played Guild Wars 1. Go ahead and go try it. Roll a tank for me and see how well that works. Going to bring a massively armored warrior? Awesome. The AI prefers targets with lower health and armor, anyway, so they will merrily run right by you and go smack your mid-line Mesmer in the face. Just hit the taunt button, right? Too bad there isn't one (or any manageable aggro system at all) in the game. The closest you can get is body blocking enemies or throwing snares at them (where snares are actually slows and not immobilizes except for 2-4 second knockdowns, so you are really just giving your squishies a way to kite).

This is just the next step: removing healers. The only healing that we have information on in the game is a single (read: ONE) healing power slot in your bar plus a couple of multipurpose spells that sound like they heal party members as a side effect of their main function (like an elementalist rain power that damages enemies and heals allies within its area of effect). How do you make a dedicated healer when you can't have more than a couple of healing powers on your bar? Are players going to just stand there not using 8 of the powers on their 10 power bar so that they can pretend to be a healer?

I can't figure out which is more amazing: that people don't see the handful of MMOs already out there that don't have or need a holy trinity, or that they can't figure out how the mechanics of the scores and scores of cooperative action RPGs out there could possibly translate in a massive format. It isn't rocket science, guys. If you don't give players the tools that you use in other games to roll a healer or a tank, people can't make healers and tanks. They aren't talking about Rift style role swapping where you can have a rogue play as a tank or a healer. They are talking about everybody having to manage positional, mitigation, and damage producing elements at once, because nobody can take care of those roles on a teammate's behalf.

I am immensely excited about this. One of my favorite regular MMO experiences is rolling on a team in City of Heroes without a dedicated healer or tank, and the game isn't even designed around that as a primary play style. It makes me spend every battle constantly assessing how well my character is holding up, and whether I need to help some specific other party member, and making snap decisions on positional cone and AoE powers. It is a heck of a lot harder and less beneficial to my xp bar, but it sure is less boring than getting a pile of enemies to horde around our nigh-invicible Tanker and then blasting the crap out of the enemies that are now all in range of all but our most narrow AoE power while they flail uselessly.

Posted: Apr 15th 2011 1:56PM Irem said

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@cforciea
Thank you. I originally thought that ArenaNet was overselling the "innovative" part of removing dedicated healers and tanks just a wee bit, but since then I've been perpetually amazed by the number of people who can't seem to wrap their head around the fact that not only are they not claiming to do something that can't be done, but that they're doing something that's -been- done before, many times. All they're doing is dispensing with a tradition. That's it.

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Posted: Apr 15th 2011 2:07PM rhorle said

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@Irem

If they are doing something that has been done many times before, how can they be getting rid of tradition? They would be trading one tradition for another tradition. Still, and I quote you, "doing something that's -been- done before, many times."

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Posted: Apr 15th 2011 2:14PM Irem said

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@rhorle
Something that has been done many times before: making a game that does not require dedicated healers or tanks.

Dispensing with tradition: creating a large-scale, persistent world MMO that does not require dedicated healers or tanks.
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Posted: Apr 15th 2011 11:56PM nagennif said

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@rhorle

The MMO industry isn't old enough to have traditions. It has mechanisms that are used by multiple games, because all those games copied one successful game without trying to innovate at all. It's safer, but it's not creative.

And what about the tradition then of heroic fantasy, which is much older, Could you imagine Lord of the Rings if everyone attacked Boromir and ignored everyone else? Wouldn't have had quite the impact I would think.

The idea of having one guy everyone attacks, because he's got skills to make that possible is not just a tired mechanism, it's simply ridiculous. It's a form of dumbing down what happens in battle, Taking away the confusion of combat, the spontaneity, the very essence of what it's like to be in battle is not a great move on the part of any game. People just like it because it's all they've ever known.

Those of us who were here before those people know better.
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Posted: Apr 16th 2011 12:00AM nagennif said

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@cforciea

Great post. I agree whole-heartedly. You said what I've been trying to say far more eloquently than I could have. Thank you.
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Posted: Apr 15th 2011 1:47PM Misterlee said

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Strictly speaking Arenanet have made three games and one expansion. Prophecies, Factions and Nightfall, while all Guild Wars games, are totally standalone games in their own right, with Eye of the North being the expansion.

Can't wait for Guild Wars 2, I've been looking forward to it since the first mention way back in 2007.

Posted: Apr 15th 2011 2:36PM winterborn said

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Hard to trust any company to be honest and for good reason.

I have not looked into the game details yet but I hope they do away with the holy trinity class gear restrictions.

If I want to tank or er.. control a mob in a thong and a Viking helmet holding a beer mug then let me. Hmm come to think about it I have done that already but you get the picture.

If this comes out before ToR then I might give it a shot.

Posted: Apr 15th 2011 4:18PM Vgk said

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@winterborn That's something completely different, the trinity is one thing what your referring to is more gear based than anything
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Posted: Apr 15th 2011 4:43PM Marked said

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I'm going to ignore the "a tank by any other name is still a tank" issue and express my concern.

If you aren't required to take trinity roles, what's to stop the entire game from turning into a "every party is only looking for the currently over-powered FOTM class." Tired or not, the trinity concept does force variety. If you don't need those roles anymore, why would the game not turn into min/maxxing like every other MMO which it seems would be an entire party of the same (currently strongest) class.

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