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Posted: Apr 18th 2011 5:59AM Dirame said

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@Space Cobra

There is plenty of info if you just go to their site and their blog, they right about everything they've spoken about in that article.

www.arena.net/blog/
www.guildwars2.com

If you really want to learn more, all you have to do is explore those two sites and read all the info in there.
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Posted: Apr 15th 2011 12:30PM (Unverified) said

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The comments on here trying to clarify what GW2 has on its website as it pertains to the trinity are hilarious. Whether they call it damage/control/support in lieu of dps/tank/heal is all just semantics. And by the way, that's still very much a trinity system. (For those of you that might be a little slow, trinity = three)

It's all just window dressing. That one poster on here was spot-on when he/she said developers saying the trinity is tired is a total marketing tactic. Because at the end of the day, you need some players to do damage to the target, some players to help keep those players alive, and some players to protect other players in some way. I don't care if it's by soaking damage or by helping other players avoid damage altogether.

Trinity system is a trinity system. It doesn't matter how it's labeled.

Posted: Apr 15th 2011 12:48PM Meagen said

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@(Unverified) Just having the opportunity to specialize in tank, heal or dps doesn't make it a trinity system - unless you call EvE a trinity system, because you can spec ships for tanking, dps or logistics (aka healing).
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Posted: Apr 15th 2011 12:55PM Irem said

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@(Unverified)
They never claimed that there wouldn't be roles, just that everyone would be able to do a little of each and that it wouldn't work in terms of a dedicated healer, a dedicated tank, and pure DPS. They even say that they have their own trinity. I'm not sure why people are looking at that and going, "AHA! They said things would change, but here they clearly have three entirely different roles from the standard tank/heal/DPS setup! This means that nothing has changed at all!"

Do you really think that there's no gameplay difference between a tank class who holds all enemy attention and needs a dedicated healer to keep them alive while they soak up damage, and a number of classes that can throw up barriers, use intervention skills, or otherwise hinder a mob while doing other things? Is there no difference between having a dedicated healer whose job it is to watch everyone's health bars and cast spells that fill them up, and making everyone responsible for their own healing if they couldn't dodge an incoming attack? Are we really so cynical that it comes down to how, -technically-, players are still regaining health in some fashion, mitigating or avoiding damage, and hurting enemies?
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Posted: Apr 15th 2011 1:18PM rhorle said

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@Irem

From the interview they state that they don't need the trinity in their game, and have done away with it. Here is the quote to make it easier then reading the article:

"And that's what we've spent many years now perfecting and working on, and getting to the point that we feel we have a combat system that doesn't need it and, we feel, works better without it. "

Giving every class access to one of the three parts of the holy trinity is not "doesn't need it and works better without it". It is no question that they are taking a different approach, but lets call it what it is. Instead of hyping it into something its not.

Someone healing will still be needed, or why group? When you can replenish your own health and not risk anything? Someone will still need to tank. Otherwise what risk is there in combat if nothing can hurt you enough to kill you? Someone will still need to do damage.

As long as gw2 has a combat system designed around roles, which it does; Damage, Control, Support" it will be the same holy trinity. If they truly wanted to put their actions where there PR spin is then they would come up with a system that doesn't need those roles.

Holy trinity has nothing to do with what roles a class has access to, which seems to be the confusion. Trinity has to do with the way combat works. Role restrictions are what roles a class can do.
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Posted: Apr 15th 2011 1:49PM Irem said

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@rhorle
They have said that they're doing away with a -specific- group of roles--the so-called Holy Trinity. I read the article, and if you were interested enough in the game to have all the information available, you would see that your questions have been answered multiple times. Since you aren't, I'm not sure why you feel the need to keep commenting on it. I'll recap anyway:

There are no ally-targeted skills. The most anyone can do is slap down a regen effect that stacks in duration, but not healing power, for you to take advantage of. Everyone is responsible for healing themselves if they can't avoid incoming attacks. Characters can dodge incoming damage, which is where the challenge has shifted to from straight damage soaking and aggro holding. You cannot avoid damage or heal yourself forever and still have any hope of killing anything difficult. This is why you group.

It is not the "same holy trinity" because it works differently and it plays differently. The entire point is to create something that plays differently. They have done away with the "holy trinity" of dedicated healer, dedicated tank, and pure DPS. It's not as though they just said, "Well, we call tanks 'control' now and healers are 'support,' so I guess that's a wrap."
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Posted: Apr 15th 2011 1:54PM rhorle said

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@Irem

But they didn't say they just changed the holy trinity, they said in the article that their system doesn't need it, so they did away with the concept entirely. You can blow all the hot air you want, but in the end their boasts are there for all to see.
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Posted: Apr 15th 2011 2:06PM Irem said

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@rhorle
They did do away with it.

There is no dedicated tank.

There is no dedicated healer.

There is no pure DPS.

That's the "holy trinity." If you define "holy trinity" as ANY three roles, period, then I can understand why this seems like BS, but the holy trinity they're saying they did away with is: dedicated tank/dedicated healer/DPS. There is no one person whose job it is to heal the party, and there is no one person whose job it is to keep the monsters off of everyone else. It's impossible to play the game like that.

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Posted: Apr 15th 2011 2:38PM rhorle said

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@Irem

The holy trinity in game design lingo refers to Needing someone to Tank. Someone to heal, and someone to dps. It has nothing to do with that person only having that role, if it did then WoW wouldn't be following that role. Because many classes offer healing, tanking, and dps abilities all in one tree. A tank in wow in one group encounter will providing healing (to themselves), provide control (by holding the highest aggro) and by dpsing (hopefully not the highest but it isn't low).

As a warlock I can provide dps, heal myself and even tank in emergencies. Not for long depending on the fight but enough to handle adds (or fights that favor a ranged/dps tank like Beasts in ToC) Yet wow uses the holy trinity model. How so if some people can provide more then one model?

GW2 is still going to have skill builds that are better at one of the holy trinity roles then another with a different build. Because you can pick skills that work differently and provide different effects.

Just because anyone can play the role they want to no matter what class the pick doesn't mean they changed or did away with the Holy Trinity. It just means they are using the Holy Trinity in a different way.



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Posted: Apr 15th 2011 3:06PM Greyhame said

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@rhorle

Sure your group will probably have one person who's doing X, another doing Y, and a bunch more doing Z. But the fact that it's different from the way everyone else does it shows that they are at least trying to be innovative rather than just say "You take damage, you heal them and everyone else punch it in the face" that most other games holy trinities are.

Also, you seem to have a problem with the whole "remove the holy trinity" thing for no other reason than to be nit picky. Everyone but you seems to understand that they mean that there will be none of the standard tank/healer/DPS combinations rather than a removal of three roles all together.
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Posted: Apr 15th 2011 3:16PM Space Cobra said

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@rhorle

Maybe this is the "Substitute Legionary Trinity" and not the "Holy Trinity"?

I may be off, but I am seeing this as more single-player friendly, since classes can do other things for themselves; I sometimes play characters (clerics) and only care to heal myself; I don't want to be spamming mass heals to the group and sit back and not do damage. This is why I tended to like Shadow Priest in WoW and even Warrior Priest/Discuplines of Khaine in Warhammer Online: You can dish good damage AND heal yourself while doing it. It is an admitted selfish way to play, but it makes me PvE and PvP viable. Besides, many groups can be selfish and thump their chest at the DPS they do as they brag, but forget the priests are keeping them up and alive. So selfishness can go two ways.

Again, it'd be nice to play this game and see how they actually implement things in real-play-time and see if they've met our expectations (and theirs) about gameplay, Holy or otherwise named Trinities.
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Posted: Apr 15th 2011 3:45PM kobeathris said

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@rhorle

That Warlock example is really the exception that proves the rule. WoW is a holy trinity game that occasionally has mechanics which break type. The point of saying something uses the holy trinity is saying that there is tanking, healing, and dpsing. It is saying that in the majority of encounters, individuals will be specialized for those tasks. It doesn't matter of a class can, if they so chose, specialize for different roles, what matters is that once the fight starts, their primary job is to perform one of those roles.

What Anet is saying two fold.
1) They are changing up 2 of the roles so that they mechanically work in a different manner than they do in most games
2) They are designing encounters and classes so that specialization cannot occur to the degree which it does in other games

I suspect that there will be classes that are better than others at each of the roles. I also suspect that when grouping, you will still be expected to perform all 3 roles in most encounters.
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Posted: Apr 15th 2011 4:10PM rhorle said

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@kobeathris

As you say some builds will be better at some roles then others. And some builds will be expected to play that role. So how is that any different then the existing holy trinity of dps, tank, heal?

Control is the "tank", Damage is the "dps", and Support is the "heal" Yes they have taken a different approach for tanking (body tanking and CC). Yes their heals work different. But how is that all different then what the core of the trinity is?

Its not. They just changed how their game uses the same old concepts of tank, heal and dps. Its just a marketing spin. People will still be expected to do the same old trinity roles even though their game apparently doesn't hold to them.

All they did is make any of the 3 roles open up to any class based on the build the player wants. And allows everyone to dabble in all roles with the choice of focusing in on them.

WoW could do the same by adding tanking, healing and dps trees to every class. You get to play the style you want with the class you want. They should however advertise like that instead of acting like they re-invented the wheel when all they did is add spinning glow in the dark rims.
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Posted: Apr 15th 2011 4:14PM Vgk said

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@rhorle this; the trinity is still there it just isn't the hard variation of the trinity we've all come to see from WoW and other games, it'll be a much more soft trinity but it's the trinity none the less

Like rhorle said if you have health bars, different roles that a player can do, and healing the trinity will come in some form or another

It won't be the hard trinity, like in WoW, but a softer variation of the trinity will be there
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Posted: Apr 15th 2011 4:30PM kobeathris said

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@rhorle
"As you say some builds will be better at some roles then others. And some builds will be expected to play that role. So how is that any different then the existing holy trinity of dps, tank, heal?"

No, I said I suspect everyone will be expected to play ALL roles even though some will be better at certain roles than others. That is a pretty huge difference from what most other games do. It is honestly more like playing table top D&D.

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Posted: Apr 15th 2011 11:34PM nagennif said

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@rhorle

Sure but in wow, it's possible to hold aggro. WIthout a taunt mechanic, without threat, then tanks are not tanks. There were no true tanks in the original guild wars, and in fact, the holy trinity didn't exist in the original Guild Wars. Sure there were healers. but there weren't true tanks. Now there'll be no healers either.

I don't think you can finish end game content in wow without a tank or more than one tank. That is, a character that can draw aggro. Once you take that dynamic out you no longer have a holy trinity.

More to the point, can five warriors do a dungeon in WoW, that's at their own level? I think not.
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Posted: Apr 15th 2011 11:41PM nagennif said

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@rhorle

But it is different, because you simply can't rely on one person to take all the aggro period, since aggro can't be controlled Take the original Guild Wars.

You can be a warrior, or paragon, the hghest armored class in the game. But you can't hold aggro. Enemies will run around you and go for your healer, or go for your minion master. You can't get them to atttack you, because there's no mechanism for that in the game. Much more "realistic' than having an intelligent foe beating on you, while the healer is standing there healing them, and some supposedly intelligent foe doesn't realize it. I know I'm a great demon or dragon, and this guy doesnt' seem to be dying, but I'll just keep trying. It doesn't work for me. It's just a silly mechanic.

So if you have guys that run after the healer and this is the original Guild Wars, you have to kill them, before they kill the healer. It's clearly not tanking as you call tanking.

In Guild Wars2 without a dedicated healer, it means the players can be more creative in the ways they take down foes. It means the devs can be more creative in the ways they design encounters.

Coming from a pen and paper background, I welcome anything that gets rid of the ridiculous idea that one player should be able to hold aggro, in any way shape or form.
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Posted: Apr 18th 2011 6:30AM Dirame said

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@(Unverified)

Marketing spin or no marketing spin, they have recognized they've created a new trinity and have named it as such. They simply claim to have done away with the traditional trinity and created a new trinity so yes, all those people who get it wrong should please get it right.
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Posted: Apr 18th 2011 6:38AM Dirame said

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@rhorle

No your colour blindness is there for all to see. But I can't really blame you, you haven't played the game and on top of that you're working with just one article.
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Posted: Apr 15th 2011 12:40PM Yog said

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Developers keep on saying this but I don't see them ever coming out with anything different. The trinity is just the basic fundamentals of any game no matter what game you play, even fps games hold to this. Most of the time the roles are separated into individual classes, other times classes can do all three but the trinity will always be there.

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