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Reader Comments (97)

Posted: Apr 15th 2011 10:16AM Arkanaloth said

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dunno if the trinity is tired but I'm certainly tired of it!

Still waiting / hoping for a mesmer reveal... =_=

Posted: Apr 15th 2011 11:21AM j1083 said

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@Arkanaloth

Me too! Here's hoping for a mesmer reveal soon.
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Posted: Apr 15th 2011 11:25AM Integral said

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@Arkanaloth

agreed and agreed!
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Posted: Apr 16th 2011 12:40AM kalipou134 said

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@Arkanaloth
The trinity isn't tired, it's just older gamers getting tired of it.

Here's a quick advice to people trying to turn MMOs into a chaotic kill-fest : go play a shooter or a hack & slash game, they exist for a reason.

You can't have RPG without the trinity.
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Posted: Apr 16th 2011 7:46PM (Unverified) said

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@Arkanaloth : the trinity is incredibly tired and I'm incredibly tired of it.

@kalipou134 : can't have an RPG without the trinity? Tell that to the people who played RPGs going from D&D's release in the 1970's all the way up to EverQuest's launch nearly thirty years later.
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Posted: Apr 18th 2011 11:11PM ShivanSwordsman said

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@kalipou134

Actually, it CAN exist without the Trinity, it's just harder to balance when you move away from it. What they're attempting to do here, I believe, is say "ok, hey, you don't have to roll a Monk/Priest to get in a group, it's up to the group to cover each other with heals, or to have someone become a dedicated healer, and for the others to cover each other successfully.

As it stands, the Tank and the Healer are the ones most needed. Personally, I don't mind a healer becoming anyone, as the DPS can be the healer, or even the tank. As it stands, this was actually a strategy with Paladins in WoW. I want to see where they take this.
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Posted: Apr 19th 2011 6:11PM (Unverified) said

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@kalipou134

Dumbest thing I've read all day
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Posted: Apr 15th 2011 10:22AM pcgneurotic said

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What is the nutshell version of how GWs's class system is going to be different? I'm asking not to be provocative, but because I've only casually played GW in the past, and then never in a group. Curious!

Posted: Apr 15th 2011 10:38AM Ehra said

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@pcgneurotic GW2's class system will be pretty different from Guild Wars 1. For starters, there's no secondary classes.

To give a really basic explanation, each class will be able to do a bit of everything (healing, damage, and control). Control is pretty much taking the place of "tanking," control can mean anything from slowing someone with a condition to putting barriers on the field to prevent enemies from reaching your allies.

Someone from Anet has said in the past that they want players to be able to group together regardless of their classes. If a group of friends all play Warriors then, supposedly, they should be able to do content together if they have good synergy between their skill bars. Whether this this applies to PvE as a whole or just open world content (since we know dungeons are supposed to be more difficult and require more "organization) we can't really know until release.
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Posted: Apr 15th 2011 12:20PM Snichy said

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@Ehra. So there is still the holy trinity, but each class can fulfil each role and they have just changed the word tank to the word control and healer to the support. Makes a mockery of their criticism of the holy trinity when in fact it is still there, its just that classes aren't confined to only one role and anyone can do any role.

Should be interesting to see if it works.
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Posted: Apr 15th 2011 12:38PM Chef Kiyo said

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@Snichy Here's the problem. Tank has been replaced in MMOs as a class that just takes all of the hits and becomes the center of the focus. Think of an actual Tank, it's big, it hurts like none other can, and lasts forever. By changing "tank" to "control", they are allowed to make Tanks what they are again. Ranged attacks don't auto hit, people can get in the way of a stream of bullets. Control classes that wear heavy armor (Guardian and Warrior) will be standing in the way of the enemy, while simultaneously bashing them in. If a mage or thief does it though, it'll be with more finesse and dodging involved.

There is no more soaking damage role in this game, so there is no MMO "tank". It is something completely different.
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Posted: Apr 15th 2011 12:52PM Ehra said

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@Snichy Like I said, it was only a basic explanation. There's more that goes into how they're removing the "trinity," such as how you can not target any specific allies to use abilities on them. It's all based on player proximity. Everyone also gets their own self heal, and a large part of survival will be your own ability to avoid damage in the first place (projectiles and attacks can be dodged).

The "trinity" still exists in the sense that the game DOES contain damage abilities, healing/support abilities, and controlling abilities, but I feel Anet tend to mean more than that when they refer to the trinity. You won't have one person in your group dedicated to tanking, one/two to healing, and X to DPS. Everyone will be dealing damage, everyone will be working to avoid damage, and everyone will be able to help out teamates in need (be it through abilities that benefit allies or abilities that hinder your enemies). I think that's the "trinity" they refer to; having set roles that you need specific players in your group to perform. Individual roles will (hopefully) be more fluid in GW2, with players doing whatever will most benefit their team at any particular moment throughout a fight.
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Posted: Apr 15th 2011 10:24AM Dril said

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Oh look. More hype.

Let's wait until a game's released before we start blathering about doing something "more," be it dynamic content, breaking the class mould or something else.

Especially after RIFT showing me that devs *still* can't be trusted to tell the truth without heaping loads of fluffy white fairytale on top (I thought we got over that with WAR) I'm not overly convinced by the next contender.

Of course, I'm sure GW2 fans who know the game inside out already and know exactly what it will be like (because those demos are obviously indicative of the entire game) will disagree with me, but we'll see.

Posted: Apr 15th 2011 10:33AM Ehra said

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@Dril

"Oh look. More hype.

Let's wait until a game's released before we start blathering about doing something "more," be it dynamic content, breaking the class mould or something else. "

You're right, how dare Anet do interviews about the new game they're working on!
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Posted: Apr 15th 2011 10:38AM rhorle said

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The holy trinity always seems to be ragged on by developers to try and get people to try their game. When they still use it because what fun is a game that involves a group but you don't need someone to heal, someone to do damage or someone to soak up damage?

Even if you don't have assigned role designations and anyone can do any role with any class, you still have that holy trinity. If you use health as a factor in combat you'll have a holy trinity. Because somehow you have to give players ways to mitigate and replenish that health or combat remains basic and stale. Unless of course its a endless style of release, run back, do damage until you die, run back.

In fact it is entirely a marketing spin by the developers since they say on their website they break down their system into three categories "DPS, Heal, and Tank.

http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/combat/healing-death/

The just use a class system that allows for one class to potentially full any of the trinity roles. You'll still be looking for that certain class that provides that certain method that is better for or lacking in your group composition.

Posted: Apr 15th 2011 10:47AM Ehra said

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@rhorle If you'd read that link, you'd see that they didn't really describe their system as "DPS/heal/tank," they then went on to say it'd be better to describe "tank" as "control." :p

And games absolutely can have classes and health without requiring the "trinity." FPS games do it all the time. Hack and slash RPGs like Diablo and Vindictus do it. I'm not sure why people seem to be under this impression that you need a tank, healer, and multiple DPS in order to have fun, engaging combat.
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Posted: Apr 15th 2011 10:47AM nightsong89 said

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@rhorle

The new trinity ArenaNet put in place is called Damage/Control/Support.

Damage: Deal damage to your enemies.

Control: Control the battlefield to keep harm from coming to your allies

Support: Keeping your allies alive and in the fight (not necessarily healing)

There is no dedicated tank or healer class. Every class has a basic self heal that regenerates health.
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Posted: Apr 15th 2011 11:00AM aurickle said

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@rhorle
Actually, they are doing some things very different. If I remember right, there are very few abilities that heal other players. Heals are focused on healing yourself. So that right there eliminates the dedicated healer.

Couple that with if every player has aggro-grabbing skills I can easily see situations where players seamlessly move between roles mid-fight.

Let's say player A has the attention of the enemy and is taking a beating. Player B grabs aggro so that A can heal himself.

Alternatively, imagine your group is fighting a couple enemies and pick up some adds. Anyone from your group could break off to control the adds with someone stepping in as an off tank.

What all of this results in is a much more dynamic play style where what you do at any given moment depends on how the combat is flowing rather than the corner of the trinity triangle you happen to be relegated to. Classes become more a matter of play style than of role.

The catch is that players are going to have to be more aware of what's going on and more capable of communicating with each other. As I'm writing this I can't help but think back to the Lord of the Rings movies where Gimli and Legolas are competing over kills. Never once does Gimli (who other games -- including LotRO -- would stick in a "tank" role) stand there acting as a tank while the other members of the company plunk away with dps or heals. He's dishing out every bit as much dps as Legolas, but in a totally different way.
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Posted: Apr 15th 2011 11:01AM Wurm said

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@rhorle
I have the feeling you didnt understand much of the article you linked to.
Else you would know why they call it Damage, Support and Control in GW2.
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Posted: Apr 15th 2011 12:30PM rhorle said

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@nightsong89

A rose by another name is still a rose. It doesn't matter if they call tanking control, it is still tanking. Calling healing support, is still healing. Damage is clearly self evident.

If every class has the capabilities it means that the holy trinity will in just as much effect, but the player has the choices of what role they want to play. For example not every druid in wow likes or plays tanking, healing and dps. Some only play one role, and the same will be true here.

Just because you give everyone the choice, doesn't mean you aren't bound by the same "holy trinity" since they are designing the game with Tanking (Control), Healing (Support) and DPS (Damage) role requirements.

What they are doing isn't a new concept or a reinvention of the holy trinity. It is the same tired holy trinity, same re-used concept they are bashing from other developers.

What they are doing is giving every class access to those roles.

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