Global Chat: Game development edition

@Gildas wouldn't it need skill based exp like pre-nge swg, where you got one type of xp for fighting with one style and another for healing and all the over skill based xp's that there were

@Decanus Not sure, I haven't played swg. What I'm getting at is that each class and each role in the game should be able to progress by being playing that role well. Currently a healer gets experience by being in a party with players that make the kills, and the whole party gets experience for those kills. The way Jondifool is looking at it is that a healer should have the ability to dabble in other roles so that he or she could also make kills for experience. What I'm saying is that we need more ways to get experience, not more ways for everyone to do the same thing. The healer should be able to get experience by being a good healer, not by copying other roles.

@Gildas That would in fact be skill-based character-progression. Healing spells might, for example, fall under the White Magic school, so anytime you heal, you would gain experience in white magic, making you a more proficient healer. In other words, if you want to be a healer, you have to progress by healing.

That's the sort of progression a lot of games had back in the day. You still see it in a few games, and many games have it for crafting(armour smithing gets better when you craft an armour, ect.).

The positive of this progression is exactly what you said: It allows for progression based on the player play style as opposed to a predefined goal. The negative is that it can require a lot more grinding for some play styles than others. For instance, in a good party, the healer would be working up their White Magic skill at a rate much lower than what the DPS would be gaining in their choice of weapon proficiencies. Like wise, no blacksmith could possibly make a profit off of every item they make unless they make on demand, and if they make on demand, they can't possibly make enough items to gain enough skill to make better armours.

And if you are talking about bonus XP for things like healing, thats another can of worms. Do they get the same base XP as the rest of the party? Do you make them play 'on commision', where they get less XP than the other members because they did less damage, but hopefully made up for it by healing? What would you do for tanks then? Low DPS, and the only thing helpful they do is get hit. If you start giving them XP for that, you just fall in the same Negative as skill based progression, but with out the benefit of the depth and customization such a system can offer.

Ultimately, blending Class based characters with role based XP isn't a good idea, since it would open to many cans of worms, and leave no one(save the DPS, who would say they don't see the problem) happy. That leads to less people being tanks and healers, and then to less players as its harder to find a good party, which would enforce a 'niche hardcore' stereotype on the game, which would lead to fewer players joining, which would lead to a constantly dwindling population.

Game developers are smart about what they do. They know these risks, so they tend to op to avoid them by sticking to either a Class or Skill based system. I agree there is probably a little more wiggle room than we normally see, but wiggling is something of an unsafe bet when you are betting millions, tens-of-millions, or even hundreds-of-millions of dollars on any given change you feel like adopting.

@Kaoy

Perhaps the better solution is to merge the two types of progression in the following manner:

- When you roll a new character in the game, you do not choose a class. Instead you choose a primary stat and a secondary stat for your character.

- Each stat/skill has it's own XP bar to level up. However, whenever you do things that reward XP it is split 80/20 between your primary and secondary stat. (Regardless of what you did).

- In order to prevent someone from having fully maxed stats active at all times, you are only able to benefit from a limited portion of the stats which are not your primary or secondary. You don't lose the levels you've worked into a stat, but the full benefits of them aren't realized if they're not primary or secondary. This prevents you from having an uber character that is good at all things at one time.

- The game could have different "synergy" skills accessible depending on what your primary and secondary skills are. STA + STR would give you large threat moves for tanking. WIS + INT would give you several healing skills. Typically unconventional combos like DEX + INT could be used for skills that are reminiscent of the "Arcane Archer" from 3rd. Edition D&D.

I see what you're saying but I did not mean a progression where you do not formally declare a class. As far as whether it would work or not, I think that depends on the gameplay itself.

If we are talking skill based gameplay that requires thorough knowledge of the game systems, ability to execute skills within the systems, aiming, dodging, etc (not click+123), then I think each class can have a fair balance of exp depending on how difficult it is to actually do things. If the game didn't have you killing respawning monsters constantly, and if its pacing were more in line with something like Shadow of the Colossus, where you fight a major battle periodically without lots of easy filler fighting and grinding for exp, then I think it would be reasonable to balance everyones contribution.

If the gameplay were not this way or if it were not based on actual player ability, then it would be unfair. Gameplay would simply require the dps to click something and autoattack to level quickly and the healer would be stuck waiting for a few rare healing opportunities. If accomplishing a skill itself require player knowledge and ability then I think this system could have a strong case for any class.

As far as the traditional rpg aspect of it, I don't know if I am really fond of the open skill system, and it wasn't really what I was getting at. Having any amount of cross-over between roles can make balance extremely difficult and it can also cheapen the roles. I personally think that the individuality of the roles should be emphasized. It's still possible to have different approaches to a role without making it a different role.