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Reader Comments (72)

Posted: Mar 13th 2011 10:01AM Dunraven said

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Yes it should, and here is why.....

Most concepts of the trinity are archaic notions that were borrowed from old Pen and Paper RPG's. They only encourage the min/maxer and the number cruncher or what we use to call munchkins

This causes folks to be more concentrated on the numbers than they are the character (as they currently are in wow and every other mmo made before 2004) What this has given us is a handful of slide rule geeks who determine what is good followed by a sea of morons shouting "U R a Bad!!!!" to the tops of their lungs while never truly understanding why they are shouting it.

More and more people don't want to play the spreadsheet or follow the maze just right in hopes of getting the special cheese. They want simply to have adventures with their friends.

So yes by all means get rid of it purge it with fire nuke it from orbit...it is the only way to be sure.

Posted: Mar 13th 2011 11:33AM Loopy said

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@Dunraven How are number crunchers and min/maxers related to the holy trinity? If we were to take WoW's example (as one of a developed number crunching system), the only min/maxing is evident in the DPS role.

I agree that playing a virtual spreadsheet is a problem, and that damage meters should go the way of the dodo, but i just don't see how it relates the holy trinity.
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Posted: Mar 13th 2011 11:48AM Apakal said

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@Loopy

Not true.

Our main tank in my old guild was constantly playing with avoidance numbers (he was a better theorycrafter than any DPS I knew). Dodge, Parry, Block, etc. etc. And consider things like Strength, Crit, Haste, and Expertise that all get factored into the calculations for Threat generation. They're all just as valuable and just as "spreadsheet-able" as Haste and Spell Power.

Likewise for healers. Heals Per Second directly calculates from Haste, Spell Power, and Crit. And they have to think about Mana regen from Spirit and balancing around that.

A good player should be theoretically crunching the numbers for all the roles, but because tanks and healers are necessary and not easily replaceable, they don't have to bother being optimal.
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Posted: Mar 13th 2011 6:15PM 2DruNk2FraG said

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@Dunraven

In respect toPnP D&D I was actually going to comment that there was not actually a holy-trinity concepts originally. The holy-trinity frame work came from early muds, which took ideas from dungeons and dragons. for example, if you rolled a fighter in 1st through 3.5 d&d you were not necessarily a "tank" you were really just a guy good at using weapons and wearing armor. If you were a Thief, you were not DPS, you were the character good at sneaking, finding traps, and opening locks. Clerics generally did not stand there in battle and just keep the fighter alive.

The trininty is a good mechanic for video games. However, it is getting a little played out. I wish MMO-Role-Playing-Games would get back to the original purpose of games like D&D which was to have you play a more dynamic character --- not just someone who fills a role in the holy-trinity.
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Posted: Mar 13th 2011 6:32PM DiscoJer said

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@Dunraven

That's really not true at all.

In D&D, you had a Fighter, Magic-User, Cleric, and Thief

In MMORPG terms, Fighters basically were tanks and did melee DPS, because they were strong which gave them a big damage bonus.

Clerics healed, tanked, and fought fairly well.

Thieves mostly dealt with traps and such.

Only MUs were a single sort - DPS.

And because of how D&D worked, spellcasters having limited amounts of spells, they couldn't do the constant healing that you find in MMORPGs - where the tank takes all the damage, only to have it constantly healed. Usually there was no healing at all until combat was over..
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Posted: Mar 13th 2011 10:09AM Alph said

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I think it should as it's old, played out and nothing but a needless handicap.

Now, if you were to keep it but allow for any player to fulfill any role simply by 'respecing' then I'd say go for it since that eliminates what I believe to be the biggest drawback.

Much like LotRO, WoW, Rift and I'm sure others, there are certain classes that can trait for dps or healing; trait for cc or heal support etc. If we broaden that to allow each class to be a viable dps tank heal or cc then I would be completely fine with it's existence.

Or... even to go the route of GW or TOR and allow for companion characters to fulfill those roles in place of a real person. However these companions need to be viable replacements and actually work. GW did a great job with this balancing this imo. While you can bring any job with you via heroes, they aren't allowed to used PvE only skills which are restricted to players and wildly regarded as midly OP to OP depending so there's still a benefit to bring a real instead of a hero variant.

Posted: Mar 13th 2011 10:28AM Silverangel said

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Going to take the contrarian stance to the evolution advocates. I like being special and feeling needed in the group. If all classes can do most roles, my character is expendable, replaceable in a heartbeat, and just filling a slot. Will this flexibility in Rift be a boon to community and group play, or a bane as most players use the capability to turn to insular grouping patterns with just their clique.

@Dunraven Disagree that the trinity encourages min/maxing more than the alternative. If your character is so easily replaceable due to removal of these barriers, what differentiates you from anyone else who wants your slot? The numbers alone. Min/maxing, number crunching, and demands for DPS meters are manic in Rift already.

Posted: Mar 13th 2011 10:53AM Apakal said

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@Silverangel

I think you should carve out your niche with your knowledge and personality more than anything. People should want to group with you because they know you're an enjoyable player.

You shouldn't be gifted that special little place just because you made a single choice at the character selection screen.

I'm the kind of player that does the research and learns as much as I can about most everything. This then allows me to sort of help other players along, which in turn gives me the opportunity to make groups with people I actually like rather than people who are actually good players. Anyone can be a good player. Its not like these games are Ninja Gaiden hard or anything. 15 minutes of reading forum stickies and you're generally good to go. Unfortunately, this isn't the opinion of the majority of players.

This is also why top guilds/clans/whatever are full of self-serving assholes. They all fill their special role with the character they chose and they don't need to worry about actually being an enjoyable person because they put up the numbers. Make them more easily replaceable and you begin to marginalize the assholes.
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Posted: Mar 13th 2011 11:24AM Devotion said

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@Apakal
I would argue that in many cases MMOs can and do reach similar levels of difficulty to the Ninja Gaiden games, raiding in your typical MMO and combat in character action games like Ninja Gaiden are of course vastly different.
However the level of skill and practice required play them both at the highest level are comparable.
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Posted: Mar 13th 2011 11:30AM Apakal said

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@Devotion
At the bleeding edge maybe for the handful of players that are playing at that level. Sure, pioneering guilds have it more difficult, I'll agree to that.

But to the masses, with success hinging on executing an already established strategy, I don't see a lot of difficulty in that.

But this is all really tangent to the real point about group composition, so I don't think its real necessary to get into it.
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Posted: Mar 13th 2011 10:31AM Jade Effect said

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The holy trinity is not going anywhere soon, until we've found something better to replace it. If something is proven to work well, then it's sensible to replace it only when a better alternative proves itself.

Changing something for the sake of changing something will only get you disasters like Final Fantasy 14.

Posted: Mar 13th 2011 10:32AM Sente said

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Getting rid of the holy trinity as an approach to grouped combat would not mean a great deal in some MMOs I play, because it is not there as a required piece anyway.

CIty of Heroes is one of those; people's characters have different areas they are better in than others, but depending on group composition the actual role can vary. ANd there is certainly not a need to divide it into the holy trinity, even though it is possible to do.

SInce various buffs and debuffs play a significant part of the combat the holy trinity is just one potential team combination of many that will work.

Posted: Mar 13th 2011 10:37AM (Unverified) said

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Keep the holy trinity, remove the rats! (all ten of them)

Posted: Mar 13th 2011 10:42AM Samael said

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I will have to ask for a question like this:

What do you (the players) want in place of the Trinity? What would be the solution? Hybrid roles for everyone? So that no one needs to rely on another for anything? Or more along the lines of Rift? Where you can change roles on the fly?

Everyone wants to be done with the Trinity, everyone wants it to be different, but no one exactly knows what they want or how it will affect the gameplay.

Posted: Mar 13th 2011 10:52AM Heraclea said

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In my experience, the problem with the trinity is that the non-DPS roles (healer and tank) are disadvantaged, often markedly disadvantaged, in non-team combat. An MMO character needs to be able to solo well enough to enable crafting professions, run daily quests, grind reputation, and otherwise do the sorts of things that MMOs offer. Characters that do not perform as well in these solo tasks are disadvantaged.

This means that filling the "tank" or "healer" spots for team content are going to be bottlenecks, especially for pickup groups.

It also means that the disfavored classes tend to attract prima donna players. They sacrifice playability in order to fulfil the tank or healer role. If they leave, the team is going nowhere. They will let you know all this.

Posted: Mar 13th 2011 2:49PM socialenemy2007 said

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@Heraclea Uhh, no, letting any class solo all the way to max level is what has destroyed the MMO community.



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Posted: Mar 13th 2011 3:36PM Apakal said

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@socialenemy2007
No. That was just people being people.
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Posted: Mar 13th 2011 10:53AM (Unverified) said

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Getting rid of Holy Trinity is not needed, combat is based around individuals performing different roles (DPS, support, healing) this also promotes teamplay, we are talking about MMOs after all.

The real issue is giving just one of the 3 roles to a class. A better system would be where each character can perform all 3 roles with obvious restrictions for balancing purposes (ie not being able to perform all 3 roles at the same time, not efficiently anyway).

Posted: Mar 13th 2011 11:00AM (Unverified) said

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I think having most characters capable of taking a few hits and throwing a few heals out would keep things interesting.

Defensive cooldowns/stance toggles would let you take a few hits or avoid them. An emphasis on control (your damage, movement, and/or position) so that the mob doesn't tear you apart is far more interesting than trying to maximize your damage rotation, which is all the trinity makes DPSers do.

And if a class can't heal or tank well, they'd at least have more combat control/evasion, like traps to throw down beforehand, slowing abilities, feign death.

And for those that say "that makes me more replaceable", have you dealt with a crap tank in WoW with an even worse attitude? They know they're bad, but they're a tank so they insta-queue. They use their "I'm less expendable" attitude to get their way. (and on WoW, I mostly tanked, occasionally healed)

Posted: Mar 13th 2011 11:15AM Greyhame said

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I think it's definitely time for a new system. It would be nice to have groups that don't rely on certain characters to be able to get through the group content. Whether this is done via allowing all classes to fill the roles by giving them all the tools to be able to survive reasonably in a group, or allow every class to switch whenever over to different "stances" that allow them to fill any role.

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