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Reader Comments (78)

Posted: Mar 1st 2011 5:11PM Ohhlaawd said

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Hear, hear.

Posted: Mar 1st 2011 5:14PM Graill440 said

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Great article and read.

The Bottom line for subscribers is this, mind your own business and watch your own lane. Developers pandering to money models and other ignorant mechanics are what push gamers in whatever direction. Give folks choice, they will choose, developers choose for you whether you think so or not.

Like i typed in my openening statement, players need to watch their own lane and not worry about how quick or how long it takes anything to be done or achieved.

So what if one person solved the toughest dungeon in game, one that say raids of 50 for several months could not. Apparently this is a huge deal to busybodies. Developer push players like cattle due to mechanics and its the developers that continue to make statements like "we cant do that" or "we wont do that".

Players have never had choice, nothing has changed either, same devs, same theme, you will play the way they want you to. until this changes any counterpoints such as casual verse hardcore or solo verse group is moot. The devs will tell you what the deal is, no one else.

And that is the sad part. (Heavy sigh)

Posted: Mar 1st 2011 5:35PM Beltyra said

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@Graill440

Um, gamers are CHOOSING to play RIFT in droves right now, and that is clearly a copy of other games(be it a very fun one at that).

You also can't POSSIBLY expect, during a recession, for major companies to dump millions of dollars into experimental games, right now. ESPECIALLY MMO's that are expensive to develop and get off the ground before they start to see returns.
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Posted: Mar 1st 2011 5:19PM smg77 said

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The particle effects in that SWG screenshot are just awful. What a mess that game has turned into...

Posted: Mar 1st 2011 5:54PM Jef Reahard said

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@smg77

That's actually a really old one that I pulled out of the vault, circa 2004. The game has seen a few coats of polish since then.
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Posted: Mar 1st 2011 5:20PM Arkanaloth said

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interesting read.. on several levels I agree but on other levels I disagree. I guess I'm on the fence on the whole matter. While I enjoyed my time in FFXI what made it great was the people but what made it horrible was the attitudes of the people you had to rely on...

I've drifted through several MMO's but I keep coming back to GuildWars (not going to get into it's status as an MMO here) because my reliance on people is limited to the people I trust. Anywho I'm curious about your opinion on FF14 though.. not just at launch but where it's heading according to the dev blogs.

Posted: Mar 1st 2011 5:39PM Beltyra said

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@Arkanaloth

FFXI was about the people for me as well. I hated having to put up with no solo content, their "quest" system, laughable UI, dealing with the Japanese players, looking for a group for 4 hours and the punishing death penalty.

I do still from time to time think "Man, it sure would be fun to go merit my thief right now..."
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Posted: Mar 1st 2011 6:05PM Jef Reahard said

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@Arkanaloth

FF has actually been off my radar since I did a piece on it back when it launched. At that time I was under the impression that they set out to simply be different as opposed to old-school. I enjoyed the novelty of it at the time, but it didn't do a lot for me in terms of immersion or sandboxiness.

If they're heading in that general direction I'll definitely give it another go.
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Posted: Mar 1st 2011 7:20PM Birk said

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@Jef Reahard

I've been looking at FF too, Jef. Check it out and let us know how it goes, yeah?

-Birk
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Posted: Mar 1st 2011 8:34PM Arkanaloth said

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@Jef Reahard

I also felt like they *wanted* to make FFXIV a sandbox game but didn't quite know how to do it. I'm curious about where it's heading now cause they seem to be trying to retro-fit theme park ideas into the game as opposed to simply making it the sand-box it seems to want to be.

tough call on that one though.
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Posted: Mar 6th 2011 9:37PM DeadInside said

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@Arkanaloth
I like that you brought up FFXI on this topic. It was very hardcore and unnecessarily punishing but it taught players how to function as a group from beginning to end. Soloing for exp wasnt an option for the most part. A good group in FFXI was like a finely tuned machine. People didnt even speak the same language but everyone knew their role. There were bad groups of course but the overall player skill level was high. Lookup Skillchains and the whole element wheel thing. Not like WoW where you can solo to endgame and then join a group and cause wipes. And people get mad at the player. Its not his fault he sucks. If soloing is easier, faster, & less stressful why would he group? Its the game's fault if someone is bad in groups. The game never taught them how to group or made them care about it. People will say that players can learn how to group well if they really want to. Of course they can and they should, but the internet should be the secondary teacher not the primary.
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Posted: Mar 1st 2011 5:23PM BoundingDeer said

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THE TRUTH.

Posted: Mar 1st 2011 5:32PM Beltyra said

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Your inconveniencing me does not equal challenge, and THAT is what I think so many gamers and bad game makers ignore. Making me have to travel 30 minutes just to get to the raiding area doesn't make the game fun. Making me log in everyday only to update a skill chart or do a jewel crafting daily and have nothing else to do does not equal epic.

We hardcores(and gamers in general) can always be heard whining about the way things were, and how entitled we are to certain things, and I don't think you ACTUALLY want things back that way again. (Terrible or nonexistent AI, UI, rewards, overbearing punishments)

I think this article is just too darned dismissive of the game world now and are just sitting around only remembering the good of the old.
Games arent immersive because you arent forced to only 6 hour game sessions? Aren't immersive because I dont have to account for real time details?

Ionno. A lot of complaints about something you get for cheap but then want to cut out those who are paying the lion share...

/SIDERANT_ON

I love hearing "WoW is soooooOoOOOOOoooo easy!!!11one".

That's why it took til August before you had your King Slayer title eh? With a 30% buff? Oh and you NEVER did LK heroic until Cata? How about Algalon? And you're a Gladiator as well? None of those took practice or hard work eh?

Yup, might as well just log in and do em at level 10 its so easy, since you like, totally dont have 6 years of experience raiding or anything...

Posted: Mar 1st 2011 5:42PM Germaximus said

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@Beltyra Hear, Hear!
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Posted: Mar 1st 2011 6:19PM Dunraven said

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@Beltyra Right-fricken-on

God I am so sick of hearing the whole casual/hardcore debate it has taken what was meant to be entertainment and turned into a virtual lunchroom cool table, that sucks twice as hard as the real one in High School did.

If games are so "magical" that you need to gate them from the masses, you truly need to reassess your life.
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Posted: Mar 1st 2011 6:20PM Jef Reahard said

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@Beltyra

What some people don't realize is that MMOs don't have to be "epic" to be enjoyable. Raiding the same boss every night for 3 months on the off chance that you might get a gear upgrade is not epic (or fun), it's silly.

The point is that the games have ceased to offer any options other than combat, which is why some folks enjoy the older games quite a bit more. It really has nothing to do with convenience, nostalgia, or failing to remember the bad along with the good; there was simply more to do. Now it's the same story in every new release:

Raid to get gear to raid to get gear and blah blah blah.

"Challenge" and "epic" are really immaterial to what I was talking about, which is an across-the-board simplification of design and the omission of virtual world features.
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Posted: Mar 1st 2011 6:28PM Lenn said

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@Beltyra "hard work "

This right here is what separates the casuals from the hardcore crowd for me (for want of better terms). The casuals look upon a game as a diversion, a fun passtime, that can still have varying degrees of difficulty and challenge. Hardcore players, on the other hand, see the game as work.

Many a time have I seen them claim they "worked hard" for this or that. Really? You worked hard? I work hard at my job. The last thing I need when I'm home, looking to be entertained, is another "job". I love a challenge. I don't need stuff handed to me on a silver platter (another hardcore mot-du-jour). But I already have a job, thank you very much.

Just my two .
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Posted: Mar 1st 2011 6:29PM Beltyra said

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I can see that for sure with the latest set of games...except maybe Hello Kitty Online? :-)

Actually, does Lego Universe focus on combat?

EVE is about the only game I've played that had enough content to viably justify "never focusing on combat".

The real challenging question I think you're putting to Devs here is to focus on the world and not on combat, but I have no idea how that would even be started. And if so, how is it not just another Second Life or some Playstation Home-like place where we live in this world with personal spaces etc, but then there are games and other such features.

You'd need to be a Dev GOD to be able to make a game balanced between 1 part The Sims Online and 1 part DoAC. :-D
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Posted: Mar 1st 2011 6:37PM Beltyra said

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@Lenn

No game "should"(hopefully) require work in the same sense as a meat-space job, but I do think that games should absolutely have rewards for those who put in the time, effort and energy.
And yes if a hardcore says "I worked hard for (X)" that is a viable statement. I worked hard to learn the piano when I was 8 but I sure never played it again after I was 10 and never earned a cent from it nor performed for anyone other than a patient mother. "Working hard" for something is just a statement of effort given and to declare the level of dedication in which the person put forth.
I can totally "work hard" at my WoW skills by reading forums, watching videos or talking with other players and still only spend an hour playing, the same as I can "work hard" spend 6 hours a night pushing my way through content with my guildies.
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Posted: Mar 1st 2011 6:39PM Jef Reahard said

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@Beltyra

Agreed, it's certainly not easy to do, but it was done fourteen years ago (UO), eight years ago (SWG), etc., so it can be done.

The only recent big-budget title I can think of that is going that route is Arche Age; almost every other dev team is looking to charge monthly (or use a cash shop) for the type of gameplay that you can get in thousands of other titles. To me, that's a huge waste of what made MMOs unique in the first place.

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