| Mail |
You might also like: WoW Insider, Joystiq, and more

Reader Comments (74)

Posted: Feb 10th 2011 5:41PM Valdamar said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@Djinn
Yeah I'm aware it requires research and I do that on every game anyway, but it just seemed like DDOs system was rather impenetrable to me (for whatever reason) and that designing builds yourself wasn't quite as clear-cut as it should have been. I wasn't sure if it was just that I was unfamiliar with the terms from AD&D that DDO used, or if it was a lack of explanation in-game that I had missed there, or from the forums or elsewhere, or if it was just me being thick, or just not getting it because I wasn't overly enamoured of the systems. I did download a 3rd party planner, but it seemed thoroughly uninspiring to use (when I can lose hours playing around with Rift and CoH character planners).

I'll spend days typing up tables and researching other MMOs on forums - heck, I've been doing it in Rift and that's only in beta, and I've done it for almost every MMO I've played in the last ten years, but for some reason every time I try to get my head round DDO character progression I just give up on it from lack of interest and comprehension, and just decide it would be easier to not get back into DDO at all.

Admittedly I haven't played DDO since I played a 14 day free trial a few years ago, when my friends and I hit the level cap (L10 back then) within the 14 day trial period and accordingly decided not to subscribe to it. At the time we didn't multiclass and just played the game as a single class each and we just picked what sounded good at the time, though I don't tend to do that often.

Oh well, I have Rift, GW and CoH to keep me busy, then SWTOR and GW2, so doubt I'll be needing DDO this year anyway.
Reply

Posted: Feb 10th 2011 12:42PM MMOaddict said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
I honestly have no preference. I'll play both equally and just enjoy it for what it is. However, I do like my ALTs and sometimes class based games tend to make ALTitis more fun and worthwhile.

Ok, maybe I do have a preference. I suppose I lean toward class based games. But then again...I LOVE FFXI and having one character but can be any job at any time I choose. Hmm, maybe it's a mix of both?

Yeah that makes sense, a hybrid of class/classless systems.

Posted: Feb 10th 2011 1:35PM eyeball2452 said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
People need to understand that the strict class system is intended to solve two problems. It makes the game easier to learn and makes grouping easier on the players.

At a very basic level, people need to classify things and then compare those things to something else in order to understand what they're looking at. A strict class system attempts to solve this.

In a classless system, grouping becomes much hard because players must first learn what the other player has created, what they can do/accomplish and then start building group dynamics with the information. There's more depth, but you lose a lot of the pick up and play functionality of a game that way.

The solution is to then build an extensive guild system, but that just isolates people into very intimate groups, which causes a whole new set of challenges.

In the end, more choices are always better, but it creates a nightmare from a social dynamic standpoint.

Posted: Feb 10th 2011 4:00PM Gildas said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
MMO class "freedom" is only desirable if it does not get in the way of game "roles". Having strong roles is one of the things that make a stronger, tighter community and gives the player a sense of place and importance.

In a single player game a hybrid class system or no classes at all is understandable since it's just you against the game, and you want to be as strong as you can be within that closed system. MMOs are by definition not single-player experiences, and there has to be a PLACE for the different ways players choose to play, not just the options. Mix-and-match classes is the fastest way to destroy this sense and cheapen the experience.

Posted: Feb 10th 2011 5:08PM Beltyra said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
I think most people here are overlooking how impossible it is to balance a classless system, and Im not talking about just PVP.

With a totally free form class system, I will make my tank weaker cause I chose to spend points that arent pure tank. My healer will be weaker because I wanted to damage as well solo. My damage dealer wont hit as hard because I wanted him to be able to take a few hits.

Unless your character has somehow leveled up every skill ever and instantly, you will fall short.

And dont tell me my bar is "too high" because why should I accept a crappy tank because he wants to pick locks?

These are MMOs were talking about here! Classes works for games like Oblivion where it doesnt matter. But in an MMO I am RELIANT on others and their (terrible) choices.

Posted: Feb 10th 2011 8:42PM Valdamar said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@Beltyra
Well I think the idea with a classless system is that it is self-balancing - the players balance themselves instead of waiting for the devs to do it for them - your hypothetical crappy tank is accepting that he won't be a top tanker because he wants the added flexibility to pick locks - sure, that means he's less use to you, but he probably doesn't share your gameplay aims anyway - all the min-maxers in such a game would probably gravitate towards each other anyway cos they'd be so hyper-specialised they'd not be much use to anyone except a team of other min-maxers.

Classless MMOs usually have some kind of limit on you only boosting one skill all the time anyway - being classless does not mean completely without structure - and if the classless system was skill-based then you'd find it very hard to only raise one combat skill anyway, because while working on any offence skill your defence skills would likely be getting a work-out at the same time.
Reply

Posted: Feb 10th 2011 8:52PM Beltyra said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@Valdamar

Good point(s)!

However I think it's a little "in a perfect world"-y to expect me to not be subject to a player who isn't effective. It's the internet. :-)
Lets say I'm healing and get in a group or random group of some kind and we expect this guy to tank but clearly doesn't have the proper defenses for it, the average player now a days isn't going to leave a group and say "Oh sorry." he'll probably call me some sort of elitist with a racist or homophobic remark and to just "deal with it" and being fighting anyway. :-D

Thanks for that interwebs and the MMO community reaching out to more and more people breeding a less than intelligent player! >.
Reply

Posted: Feb 11th 2011 3:47AM Graill440 said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
No levels, no classes. Eliot makes a great point about taking the few good skills etc, etc.

This wouldnt be a problem if the developers are using SME's (which they do not) and not depending on their own limited knowledge of the world and life as they try to design something from imagination and thin air. With great imagination those skills and other content would all be usefull and creatively employed by subscribers.

Posted: Feb 11th 2011 9:27AM Addfwyn said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
I prefer class-based, I find most classless systems end up with things being a bit generic and less unique than in a class-based system. If anything, there's less ways to build your character 'correctly' and more ways to totally botch your character over.

In the long run, most games with classless systems don't actually have more variety than class systems, if anything there's left. In Fallen Earth, do you want a crafter or not? What kinda weapons will you use? Outside of that, there's only a few areas to pick to customize yourself.

Give me a customizable class-based system like WoW or RIFT any day over generic-less unique classless systems. Some people may prefer classless, and that's fine, just not for me.

Posted: Feb 11th 2011 9:59AM sorbon said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
Classless is silly now in the days of respecs and retcons. In UO it was great largely because the in game economy meant you had to balance your ability to fight or survive with your ability to make money, and you were capped. You weren't going to be able to do it all.

Posted: Feb 11th 2011 10:51AM zorovriend said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
I personaly hate the classed system, its always after a while that i get bored with being a sencitive mage and want to be a tank or the other way around.

I like games like runescape and darkfall because they open the possibility for everything at the same time.

I don't always mind games with classes, but i always get bored make 10 alts with all diferent classes and never get past lvl 20 and then after teh first month I am totaly bored so i dont keep nor ever will subscribe (my WOW example)

Posted: Feb 11th 2011 4:06PM (Unverified) said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
Class system for sure, if not for some rigidity everyone would run around with the same abilities and it wouldn't be any fun...however being too rigid creates problems where group play isn't fluid. RIFT has a good idea allowing you to create your own class within the standard class system but may offer too much choice given that there are so many talents to chose from and not too much insight as to how they work with the other souls.

Posted: Feb 15th 2011 11:52AM Azzura said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
UO did it very well. Had a reasonable limit so you couldn't be everything with one character. If you made a full blown crafter, then you couldnt fight or cast magic very well. If you made a great mage, your weapon skills were pitiful. I love alts, and UO had me making several to play as different styles.

Bard/Tamer - Nox Mage - Crafter/Miner - Fighter - Treasure Hunter/Fisherman - Thief - Lockpicking Mage

Fun days - would love a UO2 and having both Rulesets (PvP and PvE) on the same shard/Mirror world.... worked perfect.

Posted: Feb 16th 2011 10:32PM godot9 said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
Unfortunately, due to many MMOs being based off the (forgot what its called now) DxxxMUD system, the "default" classes will end up being tank, healer, dps, CC (crowd control). This will be true even in a "classless" system unless there is decent survivability with everyone "soloing" in a group. By that I mean that there is survivability for the encounters with no tank to grab aggro.

On a side note, I deplore the dumbing down of MMOs such as WoW - which effectively eliminated CC as a group role after the Lich King expansion came out. They even stripped it out of their forums! Encounters that required CC apparently required too much in the way of group skills from the tanks and CC classes and aoe tanking became the fashion (ie death knights and pallies). Bleah!

-Godot

Featured Stories

Engadget

Engadget

Joystiq

Joystiq

WoW Insider

WoW

TUAW

TUAW