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Reader Comments (23)

Posted: Feb 8th 2011 9:48PM DancingCow said

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"if we are speaking from our modern, western view on the concept of evil then the Sith clearly qualify"

And if modern, western society judged itself by those same standards?

Posted: Feb 8th 2011 10:40PM Stellar25 said

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I am glad to read Daniel Erickson's posts about these subjects. It gives me more faith in the game to see Bioware's view of Star Wars close to my own.

Posted: Feb 9th 2011 1:00AM Anticrawl said

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Uhh wrong, if modern western society were to judge the Jedi would be a cult and the Sith would be the average American. For reference the Sith and Jedi codes.

Sith Code
"Peace is a lie. There is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall set me free."

Jedi Code
"There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force."

I hate that this game is focusing on good/evil. Sith =/= Empire and Jedi =/= Republic. Just because they use a certain political force to further advance their personal motives doesn't mean they are inherently evil.

I want to play a Sith but not follow the Empire. I want to be a Bounty Hunter but play for both factions as well. This is why I don't really like the MMO approach to Star Wars. Kinda upsetting.

Posted: Feb 9th 2011 5:21PM Ingrod said

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@Anticrawl

Really he dont say that, this excerpt is very clear in that for me:

"You are merely making a choice to be someone who was born on that side of the fence. Or, in the case of the Bounty Hunter, someone who tends to work in that part of space. The light side Sith who works tirelessly to make his Empire a better place is a deeply compelling character. The pragmatic Agent who wants nothing more than to protect the millions non-Sith citizens from harm is equally interesting. The Bounty Hunter gets to be his own man and spit right in the face of anyone who he doesn't agree with. Being a good man in a bad place is one of the all time great role-playing options."

For us Sith ideology and Empire absolutist rule are unacceptable, but Daniel Erickson has stated many time that Empire citizens, and inclusive the own Siths dont have to be bad for nature. Really I dont see that "Sith Empire = be forced to be evil" thing in his words.
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Posted: Feb 9th 2011 1:19AM Interitus said

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Daniel's post is quite confusing. He uses both Sith and Empire. Where I see Sith as the force users and the Empire as everyone in the Sith Empire. For me it makes no sense for a character like the Imperial Agent to simply kill everyone. Or to have them ruled by anger. I want them to be cold and calculating and to take advantages of situations even if that means letting people live.

The Imperial Agent could have lots of fun manipulating things in the background, but he would look like a joke if everything was rage and anger.

Posted: Feb 9th 2011 2:01AM Rimeshade said

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Reading through his post he does say that although the Empire are supposedly "evil" (I hate, hate, hate, hate, HATE that term) he goes on to say that you can still play a noble "light side" Sith, a Sith who although still using the dark side uses it to help the people and improve the Empire. Perhaps a better system to use would be dictatorship vs democracy where a dark side or neutral sith embraces and supports or is indifferent to the people's pain and the system of governance but a light side character actively seeks to replace it with something fairer for the people.

Who knows, just remember he did state that you can still be a good Sith ("good man amongst bad men" or somesuch) and that it was an interesting RP concept. Whether or not the RP community of the game is willing to accept that (even though it's perfectly possible mechanics wise) is another story, some roleplayers (especially the vocal ones or the "passionate" hobbyists) can be downright dogmatic in their views.

Doesn't affect me, Neutral Shadow all the way.

Posted: Feb 9th 2011 2:02AM beskar said

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Oh my, won't this throw the kiddies out there who want to be "the Good Sith" into a spin? There's proof, guys, that Bioware is writing this story as the Sith being, essentially, an evil group of people -- not a neutral group of people that you bring good or bad motives to -- but evil from the get go.

Posted: Feb 9th 2011 4:51PM sandwiches said

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@beskar

Ignoring your childish insults, I'll point out that you missed the complexity and point of his post. The Sith philosophy is indeed evil (by our standards) and those who follow it are evil. However, that's the whole point, not everyone has to nor does follow it. It's like saying Nazis were evil and since most Germans supported or were at least not against Hitler, most Germans were evil. That's just asinine and missing the point of the complexity of the issues.
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Posted: Feb 9th 2011 2:47AM Fausts said

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If everyone were to understand that there are two sides to every story, then maybe you can begin to see that the Sith being evil is just propaganda. History is written by the winner and if we were to imagine a Star Wars story where the Sith won, the Jedi might have been portrayed as the suicidal religious fanatics that they are.

No matter how the story is spun, one very clear account is Jedi's attempt to assassinate Supreme Chancellor Palpatine and take control of the Senate. The main motivation being that Palpatine was of a religion that the Jedi hated.

It would be nice if more games were to handle factions like World of Warcraft or Aion where the other side is not automatically a bad guy. The world wide dichotomy of hero or villain should be left to the odd-ball universe of superhero games.

Posted: Feb 9th 2011 3:26AM DancingCow said

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@Fausts

The Jedi don't hate.

The Jedi dispassionately attempted to eliminate a threat.

The Jedi and the Republic had been embroiled in a war that had lasted for many years. Palpatine was at the heart of that. He was an imminent threat to the Republic, as evidenced by his very swiftly turning it into his own personal empire after Yoda failed to kill him.

The Sith aren't just some alternate religion - their worldview is antithetical to that of the Jedi. They define themselves in such a way that necessarily make them enemies. Their repeated attempts to wipe out the Jedi and rule the galaxy are a bit, you know, provocative.

Did the Jedi ever attempt to wipe out the Nightsisters, who also wield the dark side of the force? No... but oh look, the Sith did.

The real good/evil point-of-view turns on eg. Palpatine's goals for the galaxy. In his own twisted way, he did have good intentions. If it weren't for the rebel alliance, under his rule there would have been peace and there would have been no corruption.
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Posted: Feb 9th 2011 4:12PM RogueJedi86 said

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@Fausts

The Jedi attempted to arrest Palpatine, but he was too dangerous. Notice when Mace first entered the room, he said "You're under arrest". He only said "He's too dangerous to be left alive!" after having Palpatine in lightsaber combat and seen his skill, not to mention his Force Lightning. He did intend to arrest Palpatine though, however useless that might've been with the corruption of the Senate and the Courts.

The Jedi work for the Judicial branch of the Republic government, so they would be in a position to arrest the Chancellor if the Chancellor was shown to be corrupt(at best) and a traitor(at worst).
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Posted: Feb 9th 2011 7:28AM CypherDiez said

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/sigh...you wouldn't believe the amount of debate these comments have caused on the official forums. A lot of people are coming out and thanking DE for saying what he said, wheras a lot are condemning him for such thoughtless statements and citing logical argument.
I think the last time i posted on the forums we were upto page 40-ish, but I doubt we'll see an end to the 'Good Vs Evil' argument, and regardless, developers of an MMO need to stay the hell away from seeming to support or judge one side or the other, because as we can see his comments have now left the forums and ended up all over the web and they may serve to influence some people's choices as to which faction they choose, and if the Light Side (Jedi/Republic) is seen as developer favoured...well...who wouldn't want to have preference by the developers?

Posted: Feb 9th 2011 9:55AM Tom in VA said

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Every good story has a protagonist and an antagonist; which is which in a story-based MMO such as SWTOR depends on the player and the player's own imagination. Depending on the faction you play, the actions of the other side are "evil."

WoW had its "bad guys" (the Horde) and its "good guys" (the Alliance), and yet Blizzard managed (quite effectively, I felt) to make at least some of its bad guys quite interesting and honorable (the tauren and orcs, particularly).

If a game as story-shallow as WoW can manage to do this, I am not at all worried about SWTOR. People need to lighten up regarding this latest "non-issue."

Posted: Feb 9th 2011 10:43AM dudes said

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Are Sith evil? Mostly but they can do good if they choose to. It depends on the political situation. Not all Sith think in terms of black and white but in shades of grey and in absolutes once a decision has been made. No compromises.

Posted: Feb 9th 2011 11:16AM freebase said

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the 'Crew Skills' link is screwed up

Posted: Feb 9th 2011 12:24PM BigAndShiny said

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I think bioware have decided more contact with the fans is actually a good thing :)

Posted: Feb 9th 2011 1:01PM Daemodand said

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Star Wars is all about black-and-white good-and-evil. By design.

Posted: Feb 9th 2011 3:38PM Stellar25 said

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@Daemodand I completely agree. Star Wars is a fairy tale myth about the struggle between good and evil. I think Bioware has been very clear about this subject.
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Posted: Feb 9th 2011 5:11PM Ingrod said

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@Daemodand

Star Wars philosophy is a bit more complex that only a "good vs. evil" thing, that is mainly a western point of view, but Lucas was inspired by japan and samurais to modelate Jedi and Sith, and the Star Wars mythos are heavily influenced by eastern phylosophy and religions, how buddhism zen, taoism, and the ying-yang idea, how appear currently in The Clone Wars series. And easterm philosphy is more oriented to balance between opposed concepts that dont have to be inherenty good or bad.

The Sith ideology is evil for us point of view, in many details is very similar to nazi beliefs or any other dictatorial ideology. Sith ideology use of dark side is what makes them very dangerous for the galaxy and Republic. Whe use dark side for their own goals they cause unbalance in the Force. For restore balance in the Force is needed defeat the Sith, but the dark side itself cant be erradicated because is part of the Force.

Based in the ying-yang principles Jedi have some dark side inside them, and Sith have some light side inside them, in Star Wars absolutes are relative.

The same can be aplicated to Empire and Republic, or Jedi and Sith, in SWTOR.

Daniel Erickson has stated many time that Empiere citizens dont are bad for nature, only have born inside the Empire borders. Nothing has changued. In example BH class character are neutral, only work in the Empire part of the galaxy for money.
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Posted: Feb 9th 2011 6:53PM DancingCow said

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@Daemodand

The main character of the 6 films was someone who started out good, turned evil, and then came good again.

It's not so evident in the films, but the Jedi also sometimes knowingly employ the dark side of the force. If I recall correctly, Mace Windu was chosen to confront Palpatine because his favoured lightsaber technique involved tapping into and channeling the dark side - which could be handy when fighting a Sith.

Which would seem to be the case. Windu bested Palpatine where Yoda later failed. Only Anakin's intervention allowed Palpatine to overcome Windu.
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