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Reader Comments (13)

Posted: Jan 11th 2011 7:58PM SiML said

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So... How do the Midichlorians fit into all this?

*ducks barrage of incoming rotten fruit*

Posted: Jan 11th 2011 8:58PM DancingCow said

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@SiML

Aren't they just the science behind the religion? Kind of a way to say "Hey look we've all this pseudo-religious stuff in the our stories but it's science. No really...."
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Posted: Jan 12th 2011 8:18AM jh3141 said

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@SiML Midi...what?

Next thing, you'll be telling me Lucas made those episodes 1 - 3 he was always talking about. Shame he retired before he got round to it. :)
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Posted: Jan 13th 2011 12:03AM mysecretid said

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@SiML

My take is that the Midichlorian Doctrine is a theory that a subset of Jedi adhere to (such as Qui-Gonn), but which most Jedi reject.

I imagine it's not considered heretical, per se, as Jedi like Qui-Gonn continue to observe every other aspect of the Force in the traditional manner, but rather an "origins of the Force" theory which most Jedi don't find compelling or conclusive. The fact that midichlorians were only mentioned once in the films, by Qui-Gonn, bolsters the idea, at least in my mind.

Note! This is all /my own personal interpretation/. I imagine "Official Expanded Universe Canon (tm)" contradicts me six ways to Sunday, but I gave up on that stuff some time ago.

This is my story, and I'm stickin' to it. Your mileage may vary, and that's your choice. :-)
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Posted: Jan 11th 2011 9:11PM DancingCow said

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The Potentium sound interesting - and since the KOTOR games allowed players to be neutral in terms of force alignment, maybe we'll see something like that in SWTOR.

As for Jedi statutes and force alignment... I don't think it's safe to equate the two. Against the rules yes, dark side, generally not. It was prohibited because that kind of attachment can put one in situations where a fall to the dark side is more likely (eg. with Anakin and Padme).

The whole point of the 6 movies that most people are familiar with is that the Jedi way was out of whack, and it takes the events of those stories to restore the balance - after which that particular restriction seems to fall by the wayside and light side Jedi have relationships?

Posted: Jan 11th 2011 11:43PM Bezza said

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A Good article that raises some interesting questions with regard to devotees of the force. All of the movies suggest that among the Jedi there were a variety of stances held as to how a Jedi should behave and the other literature also supports the idea that there are differing views held among the Jedi and that what is deemed as Jedi Doctrine varies through Jedi History.

Qui Gon Jin was a great example of a Jedi who followed the “living force” and eschewed the political side of the Jedi order. Ironic wasn’t it how his padawan Obi Wan advised his own master that he would be on the council if he only followed the Official Jedi ways more closely. This at a time when the Jedi Order was at it’s weakest and most corrupt just before the great purge. In the Literature of Star Wars we read as Luke Skywalker is rebuilding the new Jedi order that in ancient times Jedi were permitted to have spouses and families and that enclaves of them did exist. Sometimes openly, at other times in secret.

So it is clear that when dealing with Jedi lore we can not speak in absolutes as the lore and doctrine of the Jedi order has changed and evolved over time and according to circumstances.

So too has it been with the Sith. Though less documented in literature, there being few stories that illuminate Sith lore as much as Jedi we do know that their doctrine has changed and evolved and been flexible at times. In ancient times like those of SWTOR we have the Sith Empire, in latter times such as Darth Sideous/Palpatine we have the law of two, a dramatic shift in policy if ever their was. Yet we also know that Emperor Palpatine had apprentices as did Vader. Thus even the law of two had it’s obvious exceptions.

Clearly then there exists ample room for other force using groups to exist, in story and in role-playing. Myself I hope to see a system that allows some level of flexability in determining force alignment. I doubt though that we will see true “Grey Jedi/Sith” because such a category of force wielder would essentially be an amalgamation of dark and light classes and require (in game terms) a new faction and class.

If Bioware ever truly planned on giving SWTOR a true third faction it would have to be made up of independent groups and thus pirates, bounty hunters and grey jedi/sith. But it seems they are determined to deal in absolutes and thus we will be forced to play dark or light. This is a real shame as there are no shortage of people who would much prefer to play in the middle, independent of either dark or light in a grey faction all their own. I count myself among them.

Posted: Jan 12th 2011 7:09AM Rimeshade said

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@Bezza

Bioware have stated that alignment is independent of class, you can play a light/gray/dark sith or jedi and speech options exist for all types, Jedi Consulars even begin the game with a Neutral (Gray) alignment.

"You can play as a Neutral character such as a Grey Jedi, Confirmed - Bioware/Holonet" - http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=188836#anchor4

"Consular
Alignment: Neutral
Alignment Score: 50"
http://darthhater.com/2010/12/15/jedi-consular-impressions/page/4
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Posted: Jan 13th 2011 2:04AM Bezza said

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@Rimeshade
Yes this is true, however if you play a Jedi & Smuggler are locked into be Republic classes and the Sith and Bounty Hunters are locked into being Sith Empire.

There is no middle faction that say for example permits a grey force user, smuggler or bounty hunter to serve another faction (or none). Why should all bounty hunters serve the sith empire? Why can't bounty hunters serve the republic? Likewise for smugglers and any pseudo grey force users which was my point.

These classes do not exist outside of the republic (and by default jedi) or sith empire (and again by default sith). I find it ludicrous to assume all bounty hunters are sith empire friendly and all smugglers love the republic and are aligned as such. There should have been a fully fledged neutral faction/alignment and the character alignment system would then allow such characters to exist in their own right.
Additionally this then would permit Jedi to truly fall to the dark side or sith to be redeemed by the light. or either to exist as neutral grey. However this wont be possible.

Dont get me wrong, i am happy with the game and how it appears, but i do see this as an odd limitation
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Posted: Jan 12th 2011 7:18AM KDolo said

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I am not a fan of the Potentium. I can understand how people would want the option to lightsaber the bad guy's face off and not have to feel remorse for it. The fact is that there is no neutrality when it comes to the Force and if there is the Jedi are the closest thing to it.

What has been muddled with the "Rules of the Force" is that the actions Jedi perform are neither good nor bad. Relationships, killing, deception, theft, none of these things are bad in terms of the Force. It is a Force-sensitive's motivations that determine whether he is light or dark.

Consider Obi-Wan's advice to Luke. Most often it was, "Let go your conscious self" or "let go your feelings, act on instinct" or some such. Yoda similarly said, that action through calm, serenity and peace were actions of a light Jedi. In Taoism, this is called Wu Wei, Zen practitioners call it Mushin. Look these terms up if you don't know them.

What this means, basically, is that the struggle between the Light and the Dark is not a struggle between good and evil per se, it is a struggle between serenity and emotion.

No one ever said, "Don't kill someone" or "Don't have any relationships." The issue isn't that killing is wrong, it's that killing from hate is wrong. The Jedi prohibition on relationships is that they can turn sour, as evidenced by the Vader/Padme debacle. Attachments create emotions that are hard to control. If you can control them, more power to you but it's a difficult proposition. At any rate, neither action is bad in itself. It's the emotions that can lead to further sociopathy.

Posted: Jan 12th 2011 8:26AM jh3141 said

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Somewhat offtopic from the rest of the article, but I want to respond to your opening sentence:

"I find it extremely interesting that the most poignant and memorable lines spoken in the original trilogy are not said by the primary protagonist, Luke Skywalker."

There's a damned good reason for this. Luke is what as a novel writer I'd call a "reader proxy" (I'd guess screenwriters use a term like "viewer proxy" or similar). The basic idea is that you make the character just interesting enough to hold the reader's attention, but simple enough that the reader can easily get behind his skull. He has to know little or nothing about the events that are happening (they'll all be revealed to him by other characters, so he learns about his world at the same time as the reader), and strong opinions on any subject are likely to put off a significant fraction of readers, so you'd usually avoid them. The end result is that when you watch SW, you can visualise *being* Luke much more easily than you can any other character, which involves you in the story and invests you in his stakes much more than riding on the back of somebody harder to sympathise with. Taken together, this means that pretty much by necessity, all the other characters end up having the memorable opinions and revelations to impart.

Posted: Jan 12th 2011 10:31AM Matix said

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The possible diversity for Force belief system in SWTOR would definitely be a boon to role players wanting to explore these issues with their characters.

I would only add that the Sith beliefs in and of themselves are a lot less dogmatic than (the Jedi!) many would think, in that form and structure regularly give way to results.

Regardless of what alignment folks want to explore, I would encourage folks to check out Wookiepeedia before SWTOR's launch to learn about the rich lore of Star Wars as well as get some inspiration.

Posted: Jan 12th 2011 6:08PM claytondora said

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Here's a bit of Star Wars nerd-dom:how about The Jensaarai. I know they only came into being 20 years or so before the battle of Yavin, but the group could have great analogues in SWTOR. They are the epitome of the "gray jedi", generally misunderstood, but not really evil. I'm a potentium guy myself. Vergere was onto something.

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