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Reader Comments (70)

Posted: Jan 8th 2011 8:27AM Daelen said

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Count me in the don't like the end game group. I like MMOs for the journey, growing a toon, seeing the world, dungeons, story etc. End game means that's all over. End game means seeing the same world, dungeons for gear growth over and over until you reach that cap and sit around waiting for the next patch/exp. Thats not fun and I tend to roll an alt to fill in the time. WoW's DF feature somewhat mitigates the dullness by making doing the gear grind a button away and taking away the worst part of any raid/event.... the waiting on other people.

That said, once I've seen the Cata raids, heroic versions etc... I'll be jumping to something fresh... again.

Posted: Jan 8th 2011 8:37AM The Ogre said

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I don't like the endgame of most MMOs because they tend to be full of arrogant snobs who look at you as completely worthless and a waste of their time until you gear up to a certain minimum (which is generally well beyond what you'd have from actually playing the game).

And once you *do* manage to gear up to their minimum expectations, you're *still* dirt and, in games with player-distributed loot, not going to get anything no matter how good your performance because you're only "filler" for the core endgame team for a long time to come, even if you all belong to the same guild/clan, and therefore your reward is to have the privlige of joining the High Muckety-Mucks on their adventures.

Personally, I don't need that crap.

Posted: Jan 8th 2011 9:03AM Bottleskup said

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@The Ogre

Im sorry you've had such awful experiences with endgame raiders/raid guilds, but im gonna have to stick up for my patch of ground here and say we're not all like that at all.

"endgame of most MMOs...tend to be full of arrogant snobs who look at you as completely worthless" well i will agree that there *are* arrogant snobs, but in my opinion thats not limited to endgame, you get them at all stages, in all games, and indeed all aspects of life. And i will have to disagree with 'tend to be full', most of the endgame people I have dealt with and played with in the last 5 years have been friendly, helpful and accomodating towards less geared or experienced players, and I myself have spent most of my gaming time (in MMOs) at endgame doing raids, and i dont think im arrogant, snobby or look down on anyone at all.

In fact im quite nice, i have friends and everything. But seriously, my point is, at least in *my* MMO exerience your comment does not match what i believe is the case. Perhaps your experience is from an MMO with a very different community to the ones i have played at endgame, or you just got damn unlucky, but please dont tar all (or 'most') endgame players with the brush of arrogance and snobbery, because its not really the case. Indeed it would be self destructive to shun newcomers, the level 1 of today is the contested raider of tomorrow, i always say (well not always, i think thats probably the first time tbh, but the belief has always been there :P).

p.s out of interest, was the game which induced your dislike of endgame players perhaps World of Warcraft? I have heard WoW doesnt play host to the kindest of endgame communities.
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Posted: Jan 8th 2011 9:58AM ScottishViking said

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@The Ogre

I'm with you about half-way on this one. I totally dislike end-game snobbery. But I've also come to expect that a lot of the people who play these types of games -- and certainly the majority of end-gamers -- are powergamers who read endless min-maxing online guides. That sucks, but it's just part of life in these communities. I ignore it as best I can. Thankfully, there are enough non-powergamer raids in LOTRO that I can get by without the Gear Inquisition strapping me to the rack.
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Posted: Jan 8th 2011 11:06AM prizm said

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its the people. the im l33ter than you lulz crowd. the same old tired jokes 50DKP MINUS LOLz idiots. the you must be logged on at this time or you are a worthless piece of crap people.
its why i will never go back to WoW, i truly and utterly despise the people
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Posted: Jan 8th 2011 11:49AM Rnor6084 said

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@Bottleskup

You are a member of a small minority. Ive been around the block MMO wise and have encountered end game elitism/snobbery in every game ive played. Usually, when i get to level cap im done. People are bad enough in real life but put them in an endgame MMO situation and they get even worse. I have no patience for it. IMO WoW and DDO have the absolutely worse endgame communities. Especially DDO vets...whoa boy look at for those folks.
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Posted: Jan 12th 2011 12:33AM kuronese said

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@The Ogre

You sound like you had a really bad experience, brah.
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Posted: Jan 8th 2011 8:46AM Khalus said

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Yeah, I play MMOs for the journey, exploration and community, but sadly none of that exists in about 95% of all MMOs now. Its just a rush as quickly as possible to the cap where too many players think an MMO starts, but all you do is raid, and repeat daily quests. All for some magical new gear, but for what...so you can do the next tier of raids...woo joy!

Where has the story and lore gone, the camping of mobs, unexpected and deadly trains, annoying yet some of the best fun ever corpse runs, and overall being social with the community...all gone! There doesn't appear to be a single developer with the balls to try something new, erm well old in this case and see how it goes. There are a plethora of us elder MMO gamers longing for the days of old, and quite a few that started less than 6 yrs ago already severely bored with the quest after quest after quest grinding with nothing else to look forward too...

If ya can't tell already I despise the end-game, unless its FFXI cause there are so many unique events, dungeons, NMs and storyline missions to work through its overwhelming, but in a very good way. Yes the content can be exceptionally difficult and even harder then ever to find a party for some of it this late in the game, but if you can get that covered its an exceptional ride! Then on top of all there is to do, you can expand ones char through merit points, and weapon & armor upgrades and special synergy crafting...its endless char growth, but it takes time and a whole lot of patience, and that's where being social with the community comes into full swing.

I honestly don't understand why developers even build a world full of pointless quests, that make you level so fast and instantly reward you with so much gear & gold, when all they and most players care about this generation is being at the cap for end-game...why don't they just make an MMO called End-Game with an I-Win button on the char creation screen that instantly levels one to the cap and immediately start raiding. Its not like anyone grinding through quests solo for a few weeks learn how to play their char or class by the time they get to end-game anyway...might as well start to learn everything there and be done with it...Argh!

Posted: Jan 8th 2011 9:29AM AlienFanatic said

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@Khalus

Khalus, I truly hope that the guys developing EQ Next are listening to users like you. I, too, miss the high-risk environment that games like EQ (which is what I assume you were referring to when you said "camps" and "trains") used to have. I'd never say that EQ's grind was fun, but it sure did lead to some fun (and scary) times.

Sadly, players seem increasingly risk-averse. Any inconvenience is met with howls of rage, and an MMO that dares challenge its players is almost invariably doomed to fail. In the perfect world, we could find a truly HARD MMO that still allowed players to progress within play sessions of only an hour or two at a time, but I'm not sure that's even feasible.
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Posted: Jan 8th 2011 10:10AM Khalus said

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@AlienFanatic

Yeah EQ and DAoC and AC, and even FFXI are what I was referring too, and while they all still exist and have this style of play...somewhat...we've played them for years already and its time to move on to something new and exciting.

Also, while I've also stood by graphics don't determine the quality of a game for longer than I can recall, I did spend around $1300 this past year building a new PC that runs everything at max, except FFXIV, still can't handle ambient occlusion & 16x AA, and I dare say I'd like to play something from the elder days style, but with today's technology.

Here's hoping that this new Producer/Director for FFXIV holds to his words of late and turns XIV around and into the MMO it should have been ~ spiritual successor of FFXI.
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Posted: Jan 8th 2011 8:55AM MMOaddict said

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Depends on the game. But MOSTLY, due to the Raiding/gear grind/reputation grind nature of most MMORPG endgames, I usually stop playing the game shortly after I hit cap.

Only one game really made me happy since the leveling process itself was filled with tons of stuff to do. Funny you mention it in the article and I had to go what FFXI is this author playing? I don't know anyone who rushes to endgame in FFXI. That's the beauty of the game. The game world itself is so immersive that the main drive isn't endgame but just playing the game itself.

Other MMOs would be wise to take heed to the power of world immersion and stop making everyone rush to the end.

Posted: Jan 8th 2011 8:59AM Fisk said

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Lotro end-game

Posted: Jan 8th 2011 9:02AM Jeromai said

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For encouraging the spawning of massive numbers of players who believe the endgame is "the real game" "the only game" "where it's at" and wish to race/min-max/optimize their way through the journey. Said players also tend to espouse elitist attitudes, dismissal and lack of patience with newbies and folks still learning the game, or indeed any part of the game that isn't endgame.

Endgame also fosters a 'moar phat lewt' mindset, where gear and progression by getting incrementally better gear becomes more important to the individual than any relationship or community-building. Other players become a means to an end, little robotic slaves or passing acquaintances on the way to getting more itty bitty incremental rewards.

Said rewards also foster childish e-peen comparison behavior such as preening and showing off with every opportunity how cool or prestigious or awesome their avatar looks due to the chance favor of the RNG. Developers who encourage this with exclusive endgame-only rewards with nice art assets also help to foster jealousy and peer pressure to keep up with the Joneses, leading to negative emotions and addictive obsession/compulsion to keep playing the MMO and the consequent possibility of RL issues from the MMO seeping in.

And to make matters worse, most endgames involve long structured sessions of gameplay with many other people, learning complex cooperative movements that are repeated with precision time after time. Having soloist introvert tendencies, this is not a desirable state of relaxation or challenge in-game... I often end up wondering if I should just take up dance classes or martial arts or join a sports team in real life instead, same time of rehearsal mindset, but at least my physical body would benefit from the exercise.

Posted: Jan 8th 2011 9:06AM Tom in VA said

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Endgame = repetitious dungeon grinding/daily quests as an artificial mechanism to keep subscribers subscribing. Bleh.

Most endgame content is tedious, boring, and populated by too many arrogant snobs. Not interested.

Posted: Jan 8th 2011 9:42AM Faryon said

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@Tom in VA
Totally agree
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Posted: Jan 8th 2011 9:18AM Arkanaloth said

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it's not necessarily the end-game I dislike, but rather the in-accessibility of it. I play for story and lore, by the time you hit end-game the *vast* majority of what little storyline exists is locked away inside instances which means:

gear grinding... yay, but what's worse than gear grinding is co-dependency gear grinding, which is to say that you can't grind the gear on your own... which leads to a big mess. Can't grind the gear on your own, but any "end-game" guild / group expects you to already have the gear...

Raiding, by the gods I hate raiding... it's like herding cats, heck I honestly think herding cats would be *EASIER*. I tried it in WoW and after 3 times I told myself never again.. and why was it that bad? because of...

end-game "communities", which all tend to suck. Oh don't get me wrong they're mostly good *Players*, pity they tend not to be good *People*. In general I prefer to game with people I enjoy, even if it's the same content it's the people that make it fun, *IF* the people themselves are fun as opposed to someone you'd sooner kick in front of a passing bus.

To date the only MMO with an end-game I enjoy is GuildWars. All the content in the world can't make up for having to PUG or deal with a guild full of annoying people just for the next shiny.

Posted: Jan 8th 2011 10:01AM Tom in VA said

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@Arkanaloth

Amen to that.

I really like games that offer playstyle options, and Guild Wars offered compelling endgame options for both solo-oriented and group-oriented players.

If Guild Wars 1 ultimately allows players to use 7 heroes (instead of the current 3), they will effectively open up the remainder of the (end)game to everyone.

If WoW and other MMOs of that ilk began to offer solo, normal, and heroic versions of its dungeons (both endgame and otherwise) -- instead of just normal and heroic, perhaps with scaled rewards and/or different quests, I'd return to these games.
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Posted: Jan 8th 2011 9:21AM AlienFanatic said

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I'll echo those that find that the endgame is really less appealing than the journey. I recently quit WOW for the final time, and am considering quitting MMO's altogether after almost 11 years because the entire genre seems to have stagnated.

It's so hard to quantify my feelings on the matter. I think a large combination of factors led to my disdain for the "endgame" in most MMOs. For instance, in an effort to appeal to the widest base possible, risk was all but eliminated. Artificial mechanisms, like RNG (random number generator) are favored in an effort to stretch content. Repetitive quests were coupled with rep grinds to keep people paying month after month in pursuit of temporary rewards. Achievements were yet another way to extend subscription lengths without adding any new content. In all, the theme park MMO frenzy that has taken hold since the advent of WOW has mutated the "adventure" of MMOs into a pure "job" that you perform once you hit the level cap.

It's my hope that the future of the MMO will be dynamically-generated and user-generated content within a sandbox environment. When the TRUE next generation of MMOs arrives, perhaps the need for tunnel runs, RNG, dailies, and rep grinds will at last come to an end and that the adventure needn't end once we hit the level cap.

Posted: Jan 8th 2011 9:38AM Dril said

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Just putting my hand up to say I love the gear, dungeon and raiding grind.

I don't know why, exactly, but, yeah.

Posted: Jan 8th 2011 9:39AM TheGreatMachine said

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That's easy: The repetition.

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