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Reader Comments (14)

Posted: Dec 21st 2010 2:03PM nightravyn27 said

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That's good to know about the "gray" Jedi. Here's hoping there's a "gray" Sith. My playstyle has usually dictated picking someone from the "good" or "non-evil" side and making them "gray", just because of the pure good version of my characters are, well, boring. I like the humanity and character that being gray offers.

But this time, the husband has declared he's playing Sith. I've already said I'm probably going to be the world's worst Sith. I'll be the one in the background asking "Okay, yeah, we're 'evil' and misunderstood. I get that. But do we really have to drop-kick kittens off the cliff? Have you SEEN how cute they are? /whimper" ^^;

Posted: Dec 21st 2010 2:44PM Shazzie said

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My friends always laugh at me, that I can recite the Sith & Jedi codes by heart.

My husband isn't nearly the SW junkie that I am, but if he were to pick from Sith or Jedi, it would be a super duper good guy Jedi. Me? I've told him that it's Sith for me, to start with. Will I be super duper evil? To continue from the line you quoted in your story: 'There is only passion.' My Sith will let her passions rule her, whatever they be at the moment.

If my husband makes that Jedi, well, I'll happily make a Smuggler for Light side content.... and maybe to help counteract the sunshine, rainbows, and lollipops goodness.

Posted: Dec 21st 2010 2:55PM Canucklehead said

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Is it just me, or does the illustration of Aryn Leneer look just like Brittany Spears?

Posted: Dec 21st 2010 3:07PM Dblade said

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Meh, the problem is you are forgetting that emotional control and the lack of it are supposed to affect a person's relationship to the force. Jedi are one-sided because a lack of emotional control will turn a person to the Dark Side. The force acts as a feedback loop for force sensitives.

Most of the prequel and expanded universe additions ignore this, and to be honest, they suck hard. You cannot be "gray"-what bioware ignores with their conversation wheel is that over time, conversation choices should be denied to you. The force would reinforce your attitudes both for good and evil, and the realization of that in a game would be a lot more powerful than turning the force into a morally neutral version of an X-men power.

Posted: Dec 21st 2010 6:05PM Saerain said

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The 'instinct' quotes from Jinn and Kenobi have long baffled me, considering how much the Jedi supposedly care about suppressing instinct in favor of reason. There is no emotion? There is no passion? Anyone? Bueller?

Posted: Dec 21st 2010 7:25PM Gaugamela said

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Emotion is different from instinct.

Posted: Dec 21st 2010 8:13PM KDolo said

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The more that comes out about how the Force is being handled the less interested I am in playing a Force sensitive.

In a recent example, Jedi are given the option of turning in a romantically entangled Jedi couple to gain light points or letting them go and gaining dark. How incredibly effing stupid. Love is not "wrong" anywhere according to the Jedi. It's frowned upon because it so often leads to negative emotions. What is ridiculous about banning exposure to Love among Jedi is that they don;t have this ban against fighting which would likely open you up to even more savage negative emotions than love might. If you can fight someone without hate in your heart then you can love someone without jealousy. This is something BioWare fails to grasp, among other things, about the force, morality, and the codes of either camp.

Posted: Dec 21st 2010 8:50PM Elikal said

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@KDolo

Very well said. The example disgusted me. Getting dark side for betraying love... the very idea makes me hurl. NOT cool.
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Posted: Dec 22nd 2010 12:37AM JuliusSeizure said

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@KDolo
Wrong. The point is that Light is not Good, it never has been and never will be. It's orderly and disciplined, but in moral terms it is purely neutral. It is nothing more than a code of conduct designed to prevent immensely powerful people from abusing their power. The only good it does is to prevent and end atrocity, it has no capacity to allow for deeds that are good in their own right. Such acts must come from emotion, and the Light side abhors all emotional deeds, seeing only the extreme emotion of the Dark side.

The Dark is of course evil. I'm not going to argue otherwise. It is a twisted thing that operates only on emotion, never allowing for objectivity. On occasion the Dark may be capable of some grand gestures of goodness, when their emotions lead them to it, but in the case of the Sith their training and conditioning, engendered by ages of vicious cycles, pushes them to atrocity without remorse.

The only room for a truly good Force sensitive is in the Grey. By blending objectivity, the ability to see the effect your choices have, with emotion, the impetus to take action, they have the tools to actually do real good. Maybe only the Sith deal in absolutes, but the Jedi certainly deal in not-going-to-take-that-chances, and so both paths discard the capacity for goodness. The Grey is flexible, understanding that what is good in one situation is not good in another.

I can prove my point just using the original trilogy. Both Obi-wan and Yoda try to teach Luke to let go of his emotions and let the Force show him what to do, but in the end he proves them completely wrong. It isn't the Force at all that allows him to defeat the Empire, in fact there was no possible way he could have become strong enough in the Force to defeat Vader and the Emperor. In the end, it's his love and compassion that turns things around, not merely ending the Emperor's reign of terror but redeeming Anakin. No pure Light Jedi would have been able to achieve that.

Luke is Grey, because the greatest good comes from balance, just as the prophesy said. It's the hardest road of all, always fighting one's desires without discarding them outright, but frankly any failures can be laid at the feet of the Jedi Order's oppression. Were the Order not so hard on deviation from their values, those who deviate for the sake of doing good would not be driven to despair.

Tl;dr - Good comes from compromise and being able to see both the objective and subjective facets of a situation. The supremacy of objective decisions on the Light side prevents it from being good just as much as it prevents it from being evil.
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Posted: Dec 22nd 2010 1:30AM Elikal said

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@JuliusSeizure
If this was so the ideal jedi were a robot or a Mr Spock. Luke Skywalker married Mara Jade and had a fine son, Ben. He didn't fall to the darkside from that. The entire idea is just idotic. And game or no, I don't like idiocy in a story.
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Posted: Dec 21st 2010 8:47PM Elikal said

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I am a SW fan for 25 or so years, and esp. since the New Trilogy I always had this feeling the Jedi philosophy was flawed. First, having no personal love. How can a person having no personal life be emotionally stable? Don't we see in the Catholic Church how emotionally deforming it is to demand this of people Maybe if you are 900 years old personal relationship is something you can live without, but demanding it is just a definite pathway to break the emotional development of a person.

This goes on. Whereever you look you can find the Jedi ideal of the New Trilogy flawed. Yoda suggests Anakin to let go those who died and be happy for them, because they became one with the Force. I wonder why he wasn't happy about the dead younglings then, when they were also just "one with the force"? They are full of absurdities. In the days of Darth Revan, they leave civilians alone in the war, condemning Revan, but the same order in the Civil War suddenly makes all Jedi into Generals in the front line! I always though "WTF, can't they just take some middle road? Like helping in a war but NOT become Generals in front lines?" Both ways looked like those "absolutes" and much like wrong extreme decisions to me.

I see this as an issue for playing SWTOR myself. I want to play good. But MY good and the Jedi Order definition may not be on par. And often SW stories pushed the Jedi ideology into the face of the reader/follower. Any Jedi following not the sacred and conservative Jedi creed HAD to end bad to make the example how right and wise the Jedi were. Distusting. I don't want to play Sith Lord. But this sort of moralism is something that can make playing Jedi in SWTOR quite a pain for me.

Posted: Dec 22nd 2010 12:13AM Dblade said

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@Elikal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detachment

That's more the lines of what the Jedi would use. All romantic love has an interest of the self in it: it's like a person who loves flowers and cuts them, putting them in a jar. Detachment is supposed to be disinterested, removing the self and paradoxially enjoying things for what they are.

For your catholic example, the priest would say he does not romantically love because he is taken by a higher love, for God. A Jedi would not romantically love maybe because of the connection all things have through the Force: touching it changes perspective.

It's tough because Lucas is a synthesizer, not a thinker: he borrows and mixes together but never really added any depth. also tough because true religious detachment is alien for many people, even those who follow it, so we view the Jedi through our own attached state.
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Posted: Dec 22nd 2010 1:28AM Elikal said

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@Dblade I just don't see a detached person as advanced. I see him as degenerated. Life is passion, apathy is death.
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Posted: Dec 22nd 2010 9:01AM KDolo said

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@Elikal

Apathy is not the opposite of passion. You can be passionate but not act, your feelings stewing and twisting inside you. You can't, however, be apathetic but act.

The opposite of passion, the way you and most people who like the Sith use it, is serenity.
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