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Reader Comments (16)

Posted: Dec 8th 2010 6:28PM Temko said

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Interesting view.

Wile you dont find the skillgrind to be "worthy of QQ" (and agree it is to big), you do agree at 20v1 and unable to kill him is pretty insane for a game where even tasos said "3-5 new players working together should be able to take down a veteran"

So, my question to you is then. do you feel that the skillgrind should be made easier to "get up to par" to those veterans OR should the additional power of the character over the skills of the player be reduced?

(or maybe the devs need to wake up from dreamland and implenet a system like hardcaps, softcaps, presitege classes, etc... -.-)

Posted: Dec 8th 2010 7:44PM Nucleon said

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@Temko I must whole heartedly disagree. If you put 40, 50, 60 level 1 characters against a level 80 character in WoW, the level 80 would win.

For some reason because there are no levels in DF there is this notion that all characters are "equal", but it couldn't be farther from the truth. Getting to max level in most MMOs at a casual pace generally takes something measured in months, from 1 to 6, some even far more than that. Why should it be different for Darkfall?

In sandbox games this frustrates people (Eve, DF), "There's no way I can compete with a vet!" but for some reason in theme parks they are fine with it, "Once I get to max level I can compete too!". Why the different mentality? It's human nature I guess, remove that artificial number next to your name plate and I assume that me and you are the same.

Why is level 80 any different than the synthesis of the important DF skills at max level: Greatsword Mastery 100, Greater Magic Mastery 100, Archery Mastery etc. It really isn't... but yet we never hear anyone complain about how their level 70 can't compete in Geared 80 WoW Arena combat.
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Posted: Dec 9th 2010 3:03AM Dblade said

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@Nucleon problem is that most level-based PvP games try to avoid that because nothing drives people away faster than fights where stats determine who wins mostly.

DF sounds like you need to run away or get ganked while you put in the PvE time to get stats to a decent level to survive, while being carried in zerg battles.
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Posted: Dec 9th 2010 6:01AM ColRoofles said

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@Nucleon

> If you put 40, 50, 60 level 1 characters against a level 80 character in
> WoW, the level 80 would win.

So what?

It sounds like you've never even played a "hardcore" (as people like to call them these days) open PVP game or are very new to them, so I'll try to explain it as simply as I can.

Those are very different games. The reason most people are fine with long grinds in theme parks is because they have the option to PVP only against people their level (instanced PVP) or to avoid PVP altogether, and even if that's not possible and they do engage in PVP with a high level player, they don't suffer any losses, the high level player doesn't gain anything at all and most likely receives some sort of penalty. Every theme park is ultimately a PVE game with some crappy PVP system thrown in as an afterthought, so anyone playing it expects to PVE a lot.
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Posted: Dec 8th 2010 6:42PM Jef Reahard said

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I'd say the skill grind could stand to be eased up a bit. As a newer player, I can't say that it's killing me yet, but I do understand why some people don't like it.

I'm not a min/maxer though, I get a lot of enjoyment just running around doing whatever. If I were a more competitive personality it would probably bother me more than it does.

I'm really interested to see what happens with the offline stuff.

Posted: Dec 8th 2010 6:54PM xBludx said

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Nice nice write up, again, Jef. I will be looking forward to the next one on managing toons.

Posted: Dec 8th 2010 7:05PM smoke2000 said

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I wouldn't expect too much out of the offline skilling just yet, AV are very cautious when it comes to stuff like this. They've also said themselves, that they will be starting out small and then expand the system once they've seen the results after some time.
I'm not going to deny I didn't macro in the game, but i've probably done it a lot less then a lot of other players. I dont have lvl 100 intensifies , I dont have all my spells surging, but I do have all the spells I need and that are useful and it does the trick. Spells/Skills don't bother me so much, it's the 6 stats that are hard to keep up with and they influence the outcome greatly. They did make a change that made vitality importance degrade the higher it was to balance the HP among players a bit, but it still makes a huge difference, as do the other stats.

The reason a lot of us feel there is a grind, is also because the generally accepted pvp playstyle has been dictated by patches. So far there have been 4-5 era's where optimal PvP simply has to be done in a certain way. Each time a serious patch hit, some methods suddenly became unviable and others became quite interesting, meaning everyone had to start grinding stuff they never focused on, cause it wasn't that good to begin with.

Some examples :
-Juggle/knockback era, this is still in the game atm, but in a lesser way then it used to be. That era everyone needed to get their juggling spells up
-incredibly overpowered mounted fighting era : everyone needed to get their 1H mastery up (which not a lot of ppl concentrated on from the start, because 2H was so much more powerful)
-Rayspam era : Rays became instacast, meaning everyone needed to lvl 6-7 rays from different schools to 75-surging to compete in pvp
-R50 jumpcasting +R90s : the long overpowered mage era, where everyone hopped around shooting rank 50 spells (had to lvl 2-3 schools Rank 50's to cycle them) and some rank 90s to throw in the mix.
-the blind era : still going on a bit : Fights are determined by having your opponent blind most of the fight. Confusion/eyerot/pungent mist/ice storm, again lvling these to 75 to get the upper hand in a fight.

A lot of these era's disappeared again and some of the skills everyone lvled became less useful again. Because of the fluctuations in pvp style, a lot of people that have been playing for a long time, have been somewhat forced to grind just about everything.

Posted: Dec 8th 2010 7:30PM Jef Reahard said

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@smoke2000

Lots of good info you shared there, and all very interesting. Thanks.
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Posted: Dec 8th 2010 8:29PM Arsinek said

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biggins

Posted: Dec 9th 2010 2:21AM covertAHhps said

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If you want to grind practically nothing and still be viable for even solo PVP, you can go with indestructible or destroyer and be competitive as long as you are willing to take a bigger risk by wearing better gear . .. but at least there is only a fraction to grind compared to the what mages end up with. You sure have to do things though like enchant items for better spell success or effect along with casting unburden before your heals and pretty much have to drink a stam pot every time it refreshes. The biggest drawback is sieges or any type of battle in open areas and not being able to help your friends as much as a mage can. It seems to take more practice than a mage too because you have to move a different way and use your environment more.

Posted: Dec 9th 2010 6:38AM DarthDan said

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Very kick@ss, video, particularly the second half with the mounted charge and the first person perspective using the bow. Liked the cinematic trailer ending too. /tiphat

Posted: Dec 9th 2010 6:41AM Graill440 said

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Always like the vids, well done. The music blows in the last part though (grin). Jef nailed the bads of this game, poor graphics, UI. Character modeling (includes all items), when i tried this i didnt mind the grind but the overall look kept reminding me of AC, very dated (i am a graphics whore). Smoke covered a plethra of forum concerns on devs reacting to, and not doing "IT" right from the start.

On a side note.
Never liked levels and never liked skills needing levels. In a sandbox game or themepark i feel that everyone enters the same and its up to the individual to use knowledge and discovery to learn and master a game and become better than the next person, not gear, not weapons, not skills, but the use and implementation of all, and certainly not grinding anything. As an example an arrow or bullet to the forehead should kill anyone.

Plenty of achievments or rewards to be had with crafting said armor/weps and creating or testing potentially new skills or simply discovering things. The list of things to be created boggle the imagination, though apparently not dev imaginations

The sad thing over the years are the kids growing up, now young adults thinking, this is the current set of MMO mechanics and the mentality "this is how it has always been".

I will state it plainly, the "i want instant gratification" folks need to be choked out, they are polluting the MMO business.

Posted: Dec 9th 2010 9:59AM Aganazer said

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I wish they would make a server with a rule set similar to Eve high sec. It would be more PvE focused but still allow limited PvP like Eve's war-decs, can-flippers, and suicide gankers. I'm simply not enough of a fan of PvP to subscribe to a game that focuses on it.

Posted: Dec 9th 2010 10:05AM rocklobsterchica said

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Great video, and great music! Really loved how you punctuated the ending. Also loved the shot of that group charging, and your character drawing his sword. Epic!

Can't wait to send you on more adventures. >:D

Posted: Dec 9th 2010 6:01PM Shaard said

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Tried the game due to this diary - I'm actually impressed with it but I do see the problems....and not many of those problems are down to it being a PvP game; much more to having tried to do so much on a limited budget.

Worse bit for me in my 5 days playing....not being able to get into my new guilds city because no-one was there to let me in!! lol

Posted: Dec 9th 2010 6:31PM smoke2000 said

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@Shaard hehe that's an issue with your clan not increasing your rank to lieutenant.
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