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Reader Comments (35)

Posted: Nov 23rd 2010 1:09PM Palebane said

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In my opinion, the article shares the overriding attitude of the majority of today's MMO players. I think going back to forced grouping (or at least highly encouraged grouping) would be the only way for me to come back. In my opinion single player games have much better gameplay. And if I'm not grouping with other players, then the gameplay is really all that is left.

Posted: Nov 23rd 2010 1:13PM Pingles said

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I'm not a teenager any more. No more weekends with fourteen hour marathons.

In fact, I have a good enough life where I rarely get more than a half hour to play at a time.

I am glad they have options for my play time.

Posted: Nov 23rd 2010 5:42PM Celeras said

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@Pingles

You couldn't have said the 'standard defense' for this type of gameplay any better. Now allow me to give you the retort just as eloquently:

You're paying $15/month for a half hour of gameplay? Re-evaluate your priorities and play a different genre.
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Posted: Nov 24th 2010 11:35AM Bewoulf said

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@Celeras
Awesome of you to tell this guy what to do with his life. A half an hour at a time is probably an exaggeration on his part. But having 8 hour gaming sessions just LOOKING for a party is out the window. I'm in the same situation as him, not a lot of time like I used to have.

What's wrong with options? What's wrong with having groups of people to play with, yet also being able to do things solo. It is possible to have both. Partying in FFXI was boring most of the time. You were paired up with strangers you rarely see again. I think doing solo should be a possibility. In FFXI it was not. Yet I think they can offer enough EXP and loot incentives that partying will still be alive and kicking.

Soloing in FFXI, atleast before was NOT possible. It is now, yet a party is still the better option. Nothing wrong with this. Not sure why you have to be a purist asshole and demand party only gameplay.
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Posted: Nov 23rd 2010 1:21PM ImperialPanda said

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I disagree. I play MMOs solely for the grouping and community aspects.

Played solo, a single player RPG will always be better than an MMORPG. I think it's safe to say that due to obvious technical limitations, single player RPGs will always be more immersive, more engaging, and have a much more in-depth, robust, and simply longer storyline.

Personally, I don't feel any interest in stat-building anymore. Years ago I did grind out games like Disgaea and FFVII and Xenosaga getting my charts to max possible stats. But now it just seems so simplistic and a waste of time.

So yeah, I play either for the story or for the community, and group-oriented MMOs seem like a good combination of both. Versus solo grind-fests which are incredibly boring.

I think a lot of people are confused between requiring groups for play and difficulty of finding a group. Just because a MMO requires you to have a group for the majority of the content does not necessarily mean it has to be extremely difficult to find a group. Heck there are typically thousands of people on a server at any given time for an average MMO. If it is well designed, finding a group does not have to be difficult.

Posted: Nov 23rd 2010 1:25PM Scopique said

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I'm with Pingles. Even when I do find that I have the time to play for extended periods of time, I always know that there's a very real possibility that my child will fall down the stairs or will want a ride somewhere, or that my wife will aggro for some reason. Having to dedicate oneself to a group all the time isn't always realistic for some older gamers, and the age of the "average gamer" is trending upward.

I've always been irritated by the people who say that the ONLY reason to play MMOs is for the social aspect. I've always played for large world, patch and expansion updates, and the OPTION to group with people. Being forced to play the way someone else thinks I should play is counter-intuitive to my enjoyment.

Posted: Nov 23rd 2010 1:30PM ImperialPanda said

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@Scopique

There should be an option to group or solo. But for most recent MMOs it goes beyond that. It's becoming typical to have soloing being *more efficient* than grouping, all things considered (time finding a group, organizing, finding appropriate camps, or w/e). That's just wrong.

Making a game "solo-friendly" has imo become a simple cop-out to actually designing good grouping mechanics and group gameplay.
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Posted: Nov 23rd 2010 3:03PM kgptzac said

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@ImperialPanda

well said. good mmo should provide more choices player can make, including the option to solo. though it would be detrimental to cooperate game play if the most efficient way of gaining exp and money is soloing.
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Posted: Nov 23rd 2010 1:38PM mxt4347564czjv00q9w9qb1tppfr46hb said

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If an MMO has a healthy population, optional or forced grouping is fine. And in that specific context, healthy means "more than one group worth online".

There is a very large gulf of grey area between solo-to-max-level and raid-with-80-people-for-48-hours. It's a false dichotomy to claim that they're mutually exclusive.

Challenging group content is at the end game of lotro, ddo, eq1, eq2, wow, daoc, vanguard, and warhammer online. In most of those, there is also challenging group content all the way up as you level. It's there, but most people (with a mature player base) don't bother consuming it, given the loot it provides will be replaced quickly and there's no other tangible benefit to doing it.

Without grouping as you level, players do not know how to play their characters in a group. Without grouping as you level, you get players who are considerably less "skilled" at playing their character. The hours and days spent grouping honed a player like nothing else before or since.

The reason the author, myself, and my guildmates all remember fondly the "back in the day" of EQ1 and enforced social acceptability is because social contact lasts longer than loot. The memories of shared joy, accomplishment and pain are what creates those bonds of memory.

Here's a tip for all those developers making new MMO's: If you make grouping better than solo, but still have both, people will group. If you don't, people will solo. Currently, in most MMO's, the fastest way to either "get there" or "catch up" is to solo. Well, gee, what do you think players are going to do then? Oh right, solo.

Posted: Nov 23rd 2010 1:44PM madbassman39 said

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This is why I am becoming less interested in MMOs these days. Along with Pringles and Scopique, my time is harder to find and having a solo experience is all I'm left with. At the same time, MMOs to me are about the groups and social aspect. When I first logged into EQ I made friends who we all leveled up together and it was a blast. Now I can't do that any more and frankly single player games are better for a solo experience, but I want a multiplayer experience as well. I want a middle ground game, one that doesn't cost me to play online. This is where Guild Wars fits in. I want more of that please.

Posted: Nov 23rd 2010 2:07PM Ocho said

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I think the best solution to the world presented above, is a compromise... make content for groups only, but don't make it part of the overall story. Offer better rewards for grouped (more difficult) content, but make the process of finding the group unthinkingly easy.

WoW's dungeon finder... gripe all you want about how PUG's like that are rediculous... but it made the entry into finding groups unbelievably quick and easy (blame the community for the problem in individual players being completely backwards and not able to find where the mouse is).

Also, games even like Pocket Legends... you enter an area and BAM you're in a group with others. I've grouped more in that game than I think I've grouped in any other MMO...

But following this, those who like completing the story or content and aren't the most interested in the uber-loot, still get to complete it. Guild Wars is a perfect example. To finish the story, you don't have to group... but the BEST stuff... yeah, you might need it... and hopefully Guild Wars 2 will follow suit... yet another reason I'm really looking forward to it.

Posted: Nov 23rd 2010 5:46PM Unverfied B said

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@Ocho Oh hell with getting the BEST loot solo, show me atleast one descent game where you can get ANY meaningful progression solo after being at the level cap for a month.

I bet if a game like that was made with descent quality and fun gameplay it would become a massive hit right away.
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Posted: Nov 23rd 2010 2:23PM scottyw said

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"More recent games have gone a different route -- essentially, they've made endgame as solo-friendly as the rest of the game, with very few exceptions."

Really? Every single MMO I've played the end game progression has been through forced grouping/raiding.

Can someone give me some examples of "decent" MMOs where I can get the best loot solo? As I get older I find I have a life which means I can't guarantee I can be at the keyboard continuously for hours at a time.

Posted: Nov 23rd 2010 2:31PM Tom in VA said

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I grouped up a lot in the early days of WoW, but nowadays it's a hassle. Real-life interrupts occur. Grouping is rarely workable for me.

I always appreciated how my heroes/henches in Guild Wars would patiently wait for me if I had to answer the phone, attend to something around the house, or even run an errand. Compared to that, I'm sorry, most player groups can't compare.

I like being in a world (MMO) with other people and a player-driven economy, but I want to be free to do my own thing 99.9% of the time. My biggest gripe with WoW (and most other MMOs, for that matter) has always been that the best content (the dungeons) is almost always reserved for player groups. I'd love to see more MMOs offer single-player and player-group versions of each dungeon (perhaps with different quests and rewards?).

That, it seems to me, would be the best way to address the ages-old MMO solo-vs-grouping tension.

Posted: Nov 23rd 2010 2:56PM AlienFanatic said

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This article feels unfinished. Seventy-five percent of the article looks back over the community aspects of forced grouping, but then the final 25% emphasizes how much the author is glad that the market has changed.

This topic should have picked a theme and stuck to it. In fact, the article could be distilled down to the fact that the increased emphasis on solo play has eroded the sense of community that MMO's used to have.

As companies pursue a fatter bottom line, it seems they're becoming more and more solo games with the veneer of an MMO. Recent examples such as Vindictus emphasize this point.

At some point, we have to ask the question, "When does an MMORPG become a MMSRPG [massively multiplayer solo RPG], and do we need to redefine what an MMO is?"

I'm in the camp of "I miss the EQ group experience." I also miss a time where the penalties of exclusion led to a tighter, more polite community. I would peg the erosion of community to one game: Warcraft. From the very beginning, Blizzard took a hands-off approach to managing its community, and it's become widely acknowledge as the industry leader in community blight. It's considered one of the WORST online communities due, among other things, to the fact that players do not develop group and interpersonal skills.

I wish the writer hadn't succumbed to some other urge and had finished this piece in the proper manner. They could have written much less about the past and speculated about where this emphasis on solo play is leading the market. Instead, it comes out as unfocused, unfinished, and ultimately unproductive.

Posted: Nov 23rd 2010 2:58PM Irem said

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I mostly play solo because I'm the kind of person who breaks out in hives at the idea of having to navigate the rocky social waters of teaming up with complete strangers. I would much rather have a cavity drilled than perform in front of strangers, which is why I never play online games that just throw you into a group with random members (and why I all but stopped grouping after WoW basically became exactly that through the cross-server dungeon finder). The neat thing about FFXI was that once I girded my loins and joined a half-static EXP group, I did start building a reputation, so it became easier to join parties because I was a recognizable character instead of Random Potential Screwup #375,000, and people would greet me with, "Hey, So-and-so!" instead of me having to make a good first impression over and over again.

GW2's system is something I'm looking forward to a lot, because they're trying to encourage group play without the people you're playing with needing to be in an actual group with you. For some reason, being able to just travel around and jump in to help people without necessarily needing to be attached at the hip to them makes all the difference for me.


Posted: Nov 23rd 2010 3:02PM AlienFanatic said

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Follow up question: Could a group-based MMO be effective if players had better grouping tools at their disposal?

What if grouping for a quest was as easy as completing it yourself? What if the rewards were greater if you grouped than if you did not? Why do people find grouping so odious that solo play is much more attractive to them?

I think finding the answers to these questions is key. What if simple quests were solo (like running messages to a town), while killing enemies were group only? What if grouping took mere seconds, no matter what your class was? Would it still be less attractive?

I'd be really curious to see what the community of such an MMO would be like.

Posted: Nov 23rd 2010 4:16PM Irem said

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Well, there's making grouping "easier," and then there's making it fun. I dread joining groups because somehow I always end up with that one asshole (you know the one), while my roommate dreads them because she always ends up with those two idiots (you know who I mean), and another friend of ours doesn't want to wait for hours because he plays that one job (yeah, that one). You can make it easy for our mutual friend to get parties by setting up an auto-group system, but that doesn't make grouping worth it for me or my roommate. You can sort players into groups according to skill level by some arcane means, but that doesn't solve the problem for me or for our friend. We could all run together and then I'd feel comfortable, but our class makeup might not be right to make grouping viable and we'd still have to fill in the gaps with people who could turn out to be wonderful, but are statistically more likely to be horrible. It's tricky.
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Posted: Nov 23rd 2010 3:43PM Zorak said

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If it wasn't for the old timey group play there is no way I would be playing MMO's. And there is an aspect of hoping I'll find it again that keeps me trying new games. I would be very interested in seeing a new "forced grouping" MMO. I think there is a difference between *difficult* to find grouping, and grouping.

MMO's have gone towards solo centric play, but they've also, just as much, gone towards trying to please everyone at all times, and it has resulted in a whole lot of games without much of an identity. As this relates to grouping the problem is that if there is an "easier" or solo option, nearly everyone will take it and the pool of players available to group with becomes tiny and once again difficult.

Let's face it, MMO's do not offer gameplay that is as good as a single player, offline, games. The only advantage MMO's have is the multi-player atmosphere and grouping possibility but I don't see any devs out there seriously trying to tap into that aspect of MMO's anymore.

I think the FFXI set up is fine, solo to 10, group the rest of the way, if they worked on making it easier to find groups and allowed for smaller size groups to operate well enough, it wouldn't be so hard to find a group and the best gameplay, what the whole point of being online is, would be available in a "casual" way.

I had hopes that XIV would offer this, but instead they just kinda didn't put any group content in the game at all... like every other game.

Posted: Nov 23rd 2010 5:13PM Qehb said

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I think a problem is some MMO's are just not group friendly, such as theres too much set up involved when making a group, loot division (or worse fighting over loot), and a bad commuinity is a crippling problem.

My favourite time during WoW was going around questing and leveling with a friend, I was a Hunter and he was a Warrior, both classes which require little set up and downtime,
It was realy fun as it was simple working together, improvising through problems, chatting, and a bit of chaos,

Problem is now the only effitiant way to level in WoW (for tanks and healers anyway which the majority of players who can play either role do) is to grind through the dungeon finder, this is absolutely boring as you are stuck into your rigid role meaning it becomes very monotonous over time, I was playing a Warrior tank alt, one of the most chaotic classes but even that became just an AoE spam fest by higher levels, dont even get me started on playing DPS...

The cross server nature meant what little commuinity we had left was destroyed, soon people didnt even say more than hello in dungeons and were always in rush (and thats if there was no trolls or ninjas in the group),

And out in the open world where it would usualy be fun to find some people to quest with theres nobody around as they are all in the dungeon finder, so soloing is the only option,

So for the tl;dr
Group play is fun, WoW ruined Group play, my advice is to everything Guild Wars 2 says it will do.

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