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Posted: Nov 14th 2010 10:19AM ChaosInc said

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" He goes on to suggest his data shows that an average player needs two years worth of skillpoints to be competitive in nullsec PvP."

Sigh. And by that point everyone else is 2 years ahead again, so you need to spend another year+, and then they're ahead.....

Only problem with time-based progression. Once behind, always behind. Still a decent game all around though. Despite the fact I'll probably never touch nullsec due to having a life (read: job, school and kids) I may still pick it up past the trial period.

Posted: Nov 14th 2010 11:02AM Korvix said

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The numbers are based off the fact that lower SP pilots make up the bulk of the deaths in 0.0 and doesn't take into account what kind of ships they fly / role they fill, his definition of 'competitive' is K/D Ratio which is not really that important for a newer player. 0.0 Corps NEED low sp characters to fly the cheap ships the ones that will be killed. A wing of 5mil SP characters in T1 Frigs and Support cruisers never go amiss in a fleet fight.

You do not need to have 2 years of SP under your belt to enjoy 0.0 PvP. Most 0.0 corps have a min requirement of 5 -8mil SP for a reason.

And ofc there will be a higher amount of 50+mil SP characters out in 0.0 killing people b/c the bulk of all the vets are out there, its where the 'Endgame' is at.

"Once behind, always behind."

Complete Bullshit. Here is some Copy Pasta I made for a similar trend of thought.

--------------------
I always laugh when people say that the only reason they don't play is b/c they can never catch up to an 03'

I started for real in 07' ( tried it on and off since 03' but it wasn't so much a game back then. Lost count on trial number 20~ ). The SP gap is only noticeable for the first few months. A 11mil SP character and a 120mil SP character both flying say a AF/Ceptor/HAC/BC will be on the same footing. The extra 110mil the vet has are completely useless to them. Only so many SP you can put into a ship bro and its a surprisingly low amount for most ships once you have your 'core skills' done ie: Cap/electronics/engineering/gunnery

Again, there are only so many SP you can put into a ship/type. The only thing the vet has over a new player is the choice of multiple races ships, capitals 'maybe' if they trained for them, and EXPERIENCE the most important skill in EvE.

In game they will be even, but with that mind set of never being able to catch up...you will always be behind.

Before you are: "there is no way a 11mil SP character can will be able to properly fly a HAC!" By 11mil SP you can have all of your Core skill to V, all your learning done, and be completely able to fly a T2 ship of choice with the proper secondaries.

A new player will want to specialize if they want to be 'competitive' though there is no reason they 'need' to.

The first 3 months(*) or so are a total drag, but there is a complete learning experience that goes along with it. As put it into words by another poster quite well:

" Keeping in optimal range, knowing what transversal velocity is, understanding how to defend yourself through passive modules as well as through other means, understanding your role and the role of the enemy ship you intend to attack, knowing where to get the best deals on ammo and why different ammo is important, knowing how to compromise your enemy's defenses"

That doesn't come with ingame skill training, you have to go out, fly, practice, learn and die.

Every time you get a new ship, the learning process is expanded. You need to be able to read a person/ship going off very little data and come up with a defensive or offensive plan on the spot. Know your ships limitations and theirs. You need to know the popular fits and their counters and such.

The slow training speed eases people into it...and people that just think "this is dumb"...and just sit in station until they have T2 ship to undock are basically already dead.

That's the thing that makes EVE fun for me. Learning and Adapting to all kinds of environments and situations.

I really do think CCP should boost the 100% training speed up to 5mil-8mil SP instead of the 1.6 (which gets you your learning skills and a well fit frig currently)

EvE is a game you can keep on checking back with. Like I said it took me YEARS and well over 20 trial accounts before I decided the game was in a state to actually be called a 'game' worthy of my money and time.

Obviously its not at that point for a lot of people but just dismissing it b/c they don't understand how the training and skills/game actually work is just ignorant.

*Roughly 93-107 days is the break through point where SP starts counting for less and less. So roughly 3 months depending on how well you plan and if you use neural-remaps it can be even shorter.
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Posted: Nov 14th 2010 11:15AM Birk said

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Jack is spot on here.

-Birk
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Posted: Nov 14th 2010 11:26AM Existentialist said

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"Only problem with time-based progression. Once behind, always behind. Still a decent game all around though. Despite the fact I'll probably never touch nullsec due to having a life (read: job, school and kids) I may still pick it up past the trial period."

This assertion is actually incorrect. To be able to fly with the big boys in nullsec you need to be able to fly a few ships well. Think of this as certificates. Once you fly a Zealot, Guardian, Scimitar, Hurricane, Drake, and Vagabond well you're on the same level as everyone else, everything that comes after that is more advanced certificates.

You see, skills are capped in EVE at five. Say you want to train a Rifter to be as good as a five year veteran. You need fitting, engineering, electronics, navigation, shield tanking, gunnery, learning, and Spaceship Command.

Learning all of those to a reasonable max would take around...346 days, 1h, 8m, 16s. (This is with optimized attributes)

So first I bet you're thinking "What is a Rifter?" A Rifter is a minmatar tech 1 frigate that is a pirate's first choice. It is a cheap but worthy combat ship. So I bet your next question is "I have to wait 346 days to be good at a pirate's lowest ship?" No. All ships take advantage of skills in the area of fitting, engineering, electronics, navigation, shield tanking, and Spaceship Command. There are some specific skills that only effect ships that use guns versus ships that use missles, or ships that use neither. You see once you train some of these skills they improve all of your ships.

Someone who has flown for five years cannot fly an Ishtar better than I can (I am one and a half years) because that is the ship I've chosen to specialize in. The ishtar is specifically a "Drone Boat" but again the skills I use to fly the ishtar well transfer over to any other ship I fly. Now just because I fly an Ishtar as good as a five year veteran flies one doesn't mean I can fly all of the ship he flies equally as well, but that is what time in-game gives you after a certain point, it gives you options.

Realistically you can go out day one and get a few friends and fly a rifter in PvP. You could also fly solo if you so chose, but there is much to learn. You can fly that rifter and continue to improve it, you don't need to wait for that year, and you can be good at it. You just need to prioritize what helps you as a PvP pilot the most. Eventually you're going to max the ship out, it is just a matter of time, and when you fly the rifter for a while and then you see a ship like the wolf or jaguar, and then you upgrade, the tech 2 version is something you learning to really appreciate because it is your beloved ship 2.0.

It takes time to get good, after two years though of fighting dying and learning you'll be competitive with the rest of us and you will think to yourself "I am real happy I invested my time to get to this point." and it will ruin you on all other MMOs because really EVE isn't like any other MMO if you put in the time and effort.

Hope this helped.
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Posted: Nov 14th 2010 11:29AM Existentialist said

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Awesome post, Jack.
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Posted: Nov 14th 2010 12:07PM DeadlyAccurate said

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My main is a 20 million SP character with 45% of my skill points in missiles. I'm about as good--in that one area--as any seven-year veteran who's spent the same 9 million skill points in missiles that I have. When I'm sitting at warp-to range in my Cerberus and sending streams of missiles at you, you'll feel it (assuming I have friends who can hold them in place).
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Posted: Nov 14th 2010 10:59AM (Unverified) said

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2 years to be competitive in pvp?? no thanks.

Posted: Nov 14th 2010 11:28AM Brendan Drain said

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This is one of a few assumptions Dr Eyjo made that players like myself would definitely dispute. His data shows only that most of the killing blows in nullsec fleets are made by pilots with 2 years of skills trained or more. This is absolutely not an indicator that you need 2 years of skills to be competitive in nullsec PvP. All it shows is that most of the pilots actively engaging in nullsec PvP happen to have over 2 years of skills trained. His numbers were not adjusted for the distribution of populations in nullsec and so aren't an indicator of which group is more effective.

Perhaps more importantly, he uses killing blows as an indicator of competittiveness in PvP. This is not an indicator of how good someone is at PvP. For example, later in the report he ranked ships by the number of killing blows they made and the Drake came out top. Having flown a Drake, I can tell you they aren't amazing. The reason they tend to get so many killing blows is that their volley damage is huge. They have quite some time between shots but each shot does a lot of damage, making them more likely to get a killing blow.

Putting killing blows aside, PvP in EVE is far more to do with good situational awareness, fleet commanding and strategy than who gets the final shot. Roles like the scout, electronic warfare specialist and damage dealer can all be taken by people within a few weeks or months. What's more important is how well a player knows the game, which is dependent on a person's individual learning speed. Having 2 years of skillpoints doesn't protect a pilot from being killed or make him better able to kill -- Having 2 years of personal experience with the game under your belt DOES.

These are all things that aren't immediately visible from the graph, but to older EVE players those insights are obvious. I'd say this QEN is a perfect example of how we shouldn't take statistics at face value. Someone with more experience with EVE PvP might have noticed the inconsistency in reporting players need 2 years of skills to be competitive in nullsec PvP.
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Posted: Nov 14th 2010 11:02AM SgtBaker1234556 said

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Jesus wept. I'm so glad I unsubbed recently.
Welcome to endless re-iterations of Planerary Boredom.

Posted: Nov 14th 2010 11:33AM SgtBaker1234556 said

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Ok. After carefully researching a snapshot of statistics I'm here to publish my analysis of cold facts.

- It really takes 2 years to be competitive.
- The Kestrel is awesome 0.0 PvP killing machine.
- CCP is really serious about excellence.
- CCP is "edgy and cool" and not just a boring corporate blob interested in your creditcard details.
- The 0.0 sov warfare is really ok and balanced. No need to re-iterate. CCP should concentrate iterating Planertary Interactions, because people think it's cool.
- Really. The numbers show huge swarms of Kestrels regularly blot out the sun in 0.0.

CCP, please hire me, I've got three Dr. degrees from Internet.

Posted: Nov 14th 2010 6:07PM Dblade said

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Eh, you can already train for a viable ship in a month-I never heard people wanting less stealth bombers or inty pilots for one. Heck, it's not that long to train for a blockade runner or exhumer, and I've never seen an 0.0 corp that didn't need indy people out there.

Problem is those 0.0 people will set a minimum floor of SP anyways to guard against spies, and its high. Also, you are going to need to learn PvP in cheap ships anyway, and will follow his "path" from hi to low to null.

I'm surprised he said two years, but it makes sense not that you need that much, but that the bulk of players that last two years all end up in nulsec anyways.
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Posted: Nov 14th 2010 11:34AM Brendan Drain said

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For those worried that you really do need 2 years of skills to be competitive in PvP, all I can say is that in my experience this isn't true. In nullsec, most fleets ask that pilots be in battleships with full tech 2 fits, including large tech 2 guns that take a long time to train for. This obviously affects recruitment policies of nullsec alliances, and so dissuades them from bringing low-skillpoint characters on board. But nullsec is not the only PvP, nor do I think it's the best PvP EVE currently has to offer.

I wrote an article recently on getting into PvP from your very first day of play, which should be helpful to anyone who wants to try the game out for its PvP: http://www.massively.com/2010/09/26/eve-evolved-getting-into-pvp-from-day-one/
If you're willing to work with other players and climb EVE's initially steep learning curve, there's no reason you can't get into EVE PvP within a 14-day or 21-day free trial. I'd say just give EVE a go and see if you can get into it within the free trial period, because you can't let things like people saying you need 2 years to be competitive scare you away from what could be the best PvP game you've ever played.

Posted: Nov 14th 2010 12:21PM DrewIW said

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"In nullsec, most fleets ask that pilots be in battleships with full tech 2 fits, including large tech 2 guns that take a long time to train for."

Sounds like you haven't been in nullsec in a ~long~ time.
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Posted: Nov 14th 2010 12:26PM Brendan Drain said

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This is true! But I keep up to date with what goes on out there, and although titans messed things up for a while, their doomsday was switched to single-target. Battleship fleets seem to have re-established themselves as the core of a nullsec alliance's war fleet. Last I saw, big war fleets were mostly battleships with T2 guns and roaming fleets tended to be mostly more mobile forces like T2 cruisers and so on. Has this changed?
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Posted: Nov 14th 2010 12:40PM DrewIW said

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Quite dramatically actually.

The doomsday change meant that it's now possible to bring sub-battleship ships to a fight and not have them all wiped out. Since Dominion, the focus has been on more manoeuvrable ships such as HACs and BCs.

These days, Drakes or Zealots tend to be the bulk of fleets. Both shield and armour fleets emphasize large numbers of logistics. Shield fleets tend to kite opponents, using the long range that Drakes can offer. Armour fleets typically fit afterburners rather than MWDs, they rely on good warp-ins, heavy interdictors, and T3 tacklers. Armour fleets are particularly effective against the old battleship fleets because of Zealots low signature radius (further amplified by Boosters and Skirmish mindlinks).

There are still very specialized applications for Battleships, typically midrange laser boats, or nano fleets using Machariels and Tempests. However, the battleship fleets that used to be popular are typically outclassed by Drake or Zealot fleets.
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Posted: Nov 14th 2010 12:42PM DrewIW said

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It's also worth mentioning that the shift to Drake fleets is ~awesome~ for new players, since you can get into a useful drake in a month or so.
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Posted: Nov 14th 2010 12:51PM Brendan Drain said

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Definitely! The Drake is a very low-skill ship, you can get into one and perform pretty well in it within a month and there's a clear skill progression for improving performance in it.

That's really interesting, specifically that it's mainly Drakes and Zealots. Having flown both (and most other ships in their classes), I have to say those two did stand out as performing better and being easier to use. Do you think the T2 ammo changes (which are likely to nerf Scorch) will change things up? Think we'll ever see a Deimos or Harbinger in those fleets?
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Posted: Nov 14th 2010 1:04PM DrewIW said

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The T2 ammo changes that are on SiSi right now are boosts to the short-range ammos, not nerfs to the long-range. This is consistent with what CCP mentioned on the forums. A nerf to Scorch isn't on the table right now, but it would definitely result in a major change to some fleet compositions.

Shield-tanked beam Harbingers fit in surprisingly well with with Drake fleets. Along with Hurricanes they make very competent anti-support ships. They're great for popping interdictors or tacklers that are burning towards the drakes. Unfortunately they're not as survivable as Drakes, and they can have trouble at some of the more extreme ranges that Drakes can engage at.

Making the Deimos viable requires a major rethinking of hybrid weapons imo. They're okay for long-range (110km) HAC fleets, but most FCs would rather have another Zealot. Eagles suffer from the same problem. Outside of tackle, Gallente don't seem to have a solid place in modern fleets.
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Posted: Nov 15th 2010 6:25AM Benicio said

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Cant believe I'm actually agreeing with Drew on something!
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Posted: Nov 14th 2010 1:57PM macscarfe said

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1st Rule of War

Don't put an economist in charge of the war LOL

Been reading the good Dr's QEN's avidly from the 1st and he has finally got something wrong ... and boy what a mistake to make for your first rofl

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