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Reader Comments (16)

Posted: Nov 4th 2010 12:27PM Controlled Chaos said

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A fine dream, but most are unlikely to happen, unfortunately. I mean, there are basically still bugs hanging around the game that have persisted since launch. If they can't even fix the things that are unintentionally wrong with it, are they really going to put in the amount of time needed to inherently change the game to make it more balanced and fun? I'm thinking no.

Honestly, as was mentioned in a previous article before in the comments, the switch to free to play (while not that free and extremely limiting in quite a few ways) just seems like a method by which they don't actually HAVE to add new content, since they'll get to ride a wave of free players that are coming in and buying things off of the store. New players get to experience it while pay players from time past basically get to sit on their hands and wait until, finally, someone gives them some love too.

Posted: Nov 4th 2010 12:29PM (Unverified) said

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frankly, avoiding WoW-like endgame is what attracts me to something like CO. I dont want to have to coordinate 25 people --- or even 10 anymore. I want to work in groups of 5 or 6. Now, I'd still like to see wow-like fight complexity along with some fairly typical shoot-em-up aspects.

I posted in a different thread about wanting a superhero mmo, and being lost between coh/co/dc. Which is neither here nor there, but just my own confusion as to which game to spend time on.

Lastly, I am a big fan of user generated content. I think its one of the best ways for an MMO to extend its life. There is no way that a dev team can ever keep up with a player's ability to beat dungeons/bosses etc, so this provides a natural infusion of content. CO should focus on making large sized adventure packs (to use the DDO term) and let the community develop smaller missions etc. I think this would go a long way, and put less stress on the dev team.

Posted: Nov 4th 2010 5:03PM NeverDeath said

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"Wow-like fighting complexity" made me lol.
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Posted: Nov 4th 2010 2:15PM (Unverified) said

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Saying that the tier 1 CTP takes 200 hours is a significant exaggeration / hyperbole, almost by a factor of 10. Including the time it takes to get the blueprint, 30-40 hours to Tier 1 would be very slow.

I don't understand the reason for putting down Andrith and Mandragalore as non-content. Sure Therakiel's Temple is better, but I really can't think of what is wrong with Andrith and Mandragalore, from the point of view of a professional MMO writer who has played those lairs. The sections with the trash mobs don't go on as long as it does with TT, the few "activate this or that" mechanics are fine, Mandraga has a few buggy cutscenes but even those have been fixed pretty well, the bronze king fight is boring like Kigatilik (oops, didn't mention cosmics in this article) but Vikorin (and his Hydralisk sub-boss) is a pretty good boss fight.

Actually, you did mention cosmics in the section about their being little threat of failure, except that the most difficult cosmic, teleiosaurus, regens when players die. So does Kiga, he regens even more. Here is some recent QQ about teleiosaur being too hard for most players to beat at all:

http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=117533

The comments about PvP are mostly acceptable. Team PvP used to work much better before the melee patch, and also with a higher population. At least with F2P, it will work better with the higher population. But, silver players looking for casual PvP fun will be run out by competitive pre-made teams, and unless Cryptic steps up to prevent that then silver PvP will not be fun or successful.

Posted: Nov 4th 2010 3:44PM Dblade said

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People who get T1 CTP powers that fast are not average. Chances are what they are doing is finding a pet spawn of the correct level and perpetually tanking the master while killing the pets to farm drops. Unless you are sitting on a tremendous amount of resources, or are trying to get the more common CTP, the arms one, the rarer components are a pain.

Speaking as someone who did succeed at unlocking (although not making) the mysticism T1 CTP the normal way, he's right. The last step to the print took 100 ritual knives, and their drop rate is very poor even in areas no one farms for them in, like lemuria. I did both Lemuria and Canada for them, and while I wont say it's 200 hours of realtime play, it's long enough that most players don't bother.
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Posted: Nov 4th 2010 6:22PM Patrick Mackey said

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You need to use a zoning "exploit" or it does in fact take 200 hours. The game designers limit the rare crafting components so that only a certain number drop per hour, and the only way to bypass that is by changing instances. I'm not sure why they decided to do that, but... yeah.

If you use zoning tricks, it takes much, much less time, but if you just farm low level manimals or viper or whatever, it will take you around 200 hours. And that's what the devs intended at the time.
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Posted: Nov 4th 2010 2:46PM stealthrider said

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This article failed to mention the one thing that will most definitely doom this F2P conversion, that of former characters not transferring to the new system. If a former player like myself would have liked to try a free Champions, they could not use the character(s) they spent so many hours designing. Sure, they could create a new one, but without the customization of their first, would the allure of the game still be there?

Players will not return to Champions once it goes F2P, so the F2P conversion will fail.

Posted: Nov 4th 2010 3:32PM Anatidae said

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Ugh, raiding. Also called loot-grind.

The first thing modern MMOs do wrong is that they have levels. Why levels anyway? Lets review:


1. Levels offer a way to prevent players from accessing areas of the world and can serve as a tool to lead players down a determined path.

Is this necessary? Why not have a wide variety of directions to adventure? Are there alternatives to locking off areas for story flow (Keys, attunements, etc)?

The negative of locking content with levels is that it has the side effect of making the vast majority of the MMO world obsolete. Take WoW - the majority of the landmass is pointless to adventure in by a level 80. What if there were no levels and everywhere was still a challenge? Guild Wars is like this. Hitting the level cap is quite easy, but exploring the world continues to be be fun.


2. Levels offer a clear reward and advancement.

Without a doubt rewards and advancement should be part of MMO gameplay. Do we need levels though? Obviously not. WoW, again, demonstrates multiple ways to reward and advance a character. One can play for weeks and months at level 80, all the while still advancing. Guild Wars has plenty of rewards, yet I hit the level cap in that game within a couple days of installing it. And Guild Wars also caps armor value - go gear isn't the big advancement (though the custom look of some gear is the reward).


I cannot seriously think of any other reasons that levels exist in game play. Even in pen and paper they were used as an artificial tool to keep your players where they belong and offer a reward without making an overly complex system around it. With computers, we can afford to be more complex.

Now, here are more faults of levels:

Levels separate friends: If I fall behind on levels, I can't play with friends. Of course some developers "fixed" this by creating sidekicks. Which, in a very real way, is temporarily eliminating the level system. Which further illustrates we don't need levels to begin with.

Levels cause developers to accidentally build two MMO gameplay styles. The leveling-game and the end-game. Millions of dollars are spent making a leveling-game that players burn through. What a waste. Just drop everyone into one game, no levels, and use that money to invent far superior ways of advancement.


As for Champions. I think this game would have been much better without levels and just unlocks. A system that players can unlock various powers through gameplay mechanics (serving the same thing as a level). That would offer more content immediately as every foe would still be a valid foe to defeat.

Of course, with the adventure packs, Champions does exactly this with these missions that work for a wide range of levels. Again, Cryptic is basically creating systems to bypass the failures of the overall level mechanic. So not only did they waste time creating level-based content, now they spend extra time developing ways to then create level-less content.

The next thing Champions needs to bring to the table is the social interaction. There is no point to live in the champions world. I think they should add in villains. There should be zone objectives that each faction can control which then influences the zone in some way. There should be supergroup bases that are specifically designed to be raided by the opposite faction. Basically you get to design your own PvP map and defenses against invading forces and, of course, invade other's created bases.

Why log in Champions? After a while it gets dull. Grind a new travel form? Yawn. Yet Modern Warfare 2 still has thousands of players online at any time of the day - playing in far less content. Same with Team Fortress 2. Those are PvP solutions. Ultima Online still lives on, mainly because people can own houses and decorate them. It sounds insane, but the fact that you can claim some virtual land to call your own in that aging game gives it constant life.


I think if developers stopped spending millions of dollars creating disposable level-based content they could use that time/resources to improve the "end-game" which would now just be "the game". I'd even go so far as saying the game should be developed with the idea that every player is maxed out on abilities just as they would in any "end game". Then develop systems that are fun to play and after that is done, add in the skill advancement mechanic (knowing players will burn/grind through it in weeks anyway).

Posted: Nov 4th 2010 4:44PM Chiren said

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Interesting topic.

I think I'm not brave enough to imagine a world without levels myself. To me I see levels as an important part of character progression. A large part of why people continue to play a game is carrot and stick, and levels allow you to stretch carrot and stick quite far.

Without levels I would see everyone going for the exact same discrete points of optimal improvement available, and once that is done, they would start to lose interest in the game.
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Posted: Nov 4th 2010 5:07PM Anatidae said

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@Montpoupon Yes, I clearly said advancement and rewards are important. You can call them "carrot and stick" mechanics too.

Again, if I take some of the most successful MMOs in history:

WoW: Most players spend the vast majority of their gameplay time at the "max level" and yet grind away at rep, loot, tokens, etc... Rewards without levels. Or you could actually call them "micro-levels". Instead of one big number, you are advancing many smaller level bars.

Guild Wars: Again, a game where hitting max level feels like you completed the tutorial portion of the game. Hitting max armor value is just as easy. Yet what has made guildwars so successful? Good story, good enviornments, simple progression by finding new abilities, armor skins, and achievements along with fun gameplay.

Actually, almost every MMO with levels can be powerleveled through in a matter of days or weeks. The older the MMO, the faster the leveling becomes. Blizzard even makes leveling in WoW a faster and faster process on purpose.


There are some games trying different things. Lego Universe has no levels. It is very grind-heavy on the unlocks, but it is fun. Although I'll complain about too little overall content, I think it serves as a good example of something other than the level system. EvE Online uses an offline skill advancement system that has some merits. Its lack of levels does allow for a new player to be useful, and potentially just as dangerous, as a 4-year old veteran. Although not perfect, they are both good examples of alternative systems of progression.


I just think if you ask the question "why levels?" then for each reason, ask the question, "is there an alternative that makes better overall game play?"

I promise you that there are plenty of carrots that can be tied to a stick in order to get your mule walking.
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Posted: Nov 4th 2010 4:00PM roberticvs said

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By far, one of the best possible new game features would be to have anyone who uses the term "endgame" to instantly burst into flame and die horribly at their keyboard with one last realization of how the perpetual use of this term of entitlement has helped to turn MMOs into themeparks.

Posted: Nov 4th 2010 5:11PM (Unverified) said

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lol, i can see that.

I think you know what I mean to say though...

Posted: Nov 4th 2010 5:13PM (Unverified) said

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that was to NeverDeath's comment.
me = comment fail

Posted: Nov 4th 2010 5:16PM Skyydragonn said

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CO did so many things wrong i wont even start listing them beyond saying that most common complaints on scratch the surface of the games problems. I was so hyped for CO before release and for that first month. Sadly after 2 weeks i knew it was going to be CoX all over again and guess what it was...here's your mission, find a door complete mini-dungeon, get reward, rinse repeat for 40 levels.

PvP is a gigaintic clusterF#%@ of button mashing, with no real point besides grinding comstume unlocks for vanity purposes.

The stat system is like trying to decipher ancient greek written in Hindi and then translated to Mongolian. This stats does this IF you use this stat as a primary...or this if not.. oh and this stat which you don't really need to prioritize is actually very important to your build.... honestly its so convoluted I'm amazed players let it get to beta like that in the first place.

sooo many more issues...Ugh.

someone at Cryptic needs to fire thier whole MMO development department and restaff it with developers that wont giv us the same game in a shiny new box for a fourth time. -.-

Posted: May 6th 2011 3:41PM (Unverified) said

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F2P = RIP IMO.

Champions Online pretended to be an MMO shortly after their release last year. In October, they released Blood Moon, a special event for players in the spirit of Halloween. They gave us regular patches and updates, tweaks and fixes, and released their winter event in time for the holidays. Then it was crunch time for the release of STO and they moved people to focus on that. They didn't forget CO, they just worked on it less and less.

By the time STO came out and the population of it was obviously larger than CO's, it was obvious from then that they would always make it the priority. It makes sense, it's just business. They had the Revelations expansion in the works and decided to make it free because CO offered so little and the heat from the forums made them go the free route.

They patted themselves on the back for their own generosity.

Since then, they've tweaked things, released some new powers, broke other things, and months went by with little real content. Their final desperate move was to release adventure packs to get people interested. That too became a huge blunder, with a broken challenge system that made going in with a group become a huge debacle of frustrated and angry players. Hard core guys loved the challenge level. Max/Min types with knowledge and experience could handle it, or even solo it on elite, but it required special builds. For RPers who limit themselves, not so much.

The adventure packs themselves are taking too long to release. Since the first one lacked voice work and was a repetitive grind during the generator levels, and the second one took about 4 months to come out, and that's pretty much all they've offered us within the last half year, of course people are going to get bored and want to leave.

The only thing they really release regularly are new costumes to buy in the c-store. They offer action figures and costumes as incentives to play their Action Packs. It is a game designed to cater to people who love costumes and designing their heroes. That's not a bad thing, but that's where they're getting their money from. I know people who have unlocked 20 costume slots on one toon. A lot of them have tons of alts and there are not-so-secret groups that dress up as their favorite marvel/DC/comic character and emulate them. And they RP theme as those types there.

I just have to agree with Brian!, there isn't a whole lot to do. There isn't a whole lot to do and I think people mainly play dress up and hold costume contests because of it.

And now that it's going F2P, that means the people working there, are focusing on getting it converted, and focus on where they're getting their money from, the c-store stuff. If they do ever let us make bases, they'll probably do it like they do Starships, and offer the better more interesting interiors as c-store unlocks too.

Which means new updates, new game content, it'll be pushed further and further back. It'll take longer to be released because F2P also means there's less people working on it. They got to focus on STO, it's a bigger priority, they have other companies to answer to. They own CO, so they can afford to give it less attention.

Posted: Nov 6th 2010 1:06AM Jeromai said

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"A single individual can wipe the raid."

Interesting. You're entitled to asking for what you want. This is also a game that I personally wouldn't play. Why? There's a lot of danger to a game's community hiding behind those innocent words looking for a higher level of challenge.

Once you put that level of stress and tension in a game, your community divides sharply because they will only accept those who can perform well enough to NOT wipe the raid. And they will base it not on real player performance, but on other indicators - gear, character skill build, etc.

Even after you get past that hurdle, comes the guild-fracturing stress of doing a raid over and over learning what precisely to do, and a whole bunch of screaming and yelling at someone who appears to be letting the whole team down. Not everyone goes in for drill sergeant training in their games, or being a convenient scapegoat, so again you'll have more community splintering apart.

At the end of it, those who made it past this gauntlet end up with an enormous sense of entitlement and will unceasingly demand more and more higher levels of difficult content + rewards or quit in a huff, while the rest of the community get fed up that their own playstyles are being ignored in favor of these hardcore few and also will threaten to quit in a huff.

And lastly, giving a single individual enough power to affect other players' game experiences negatively gives rise to... yep, griefers. 'Nuff said.

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