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Reader Comments (66)

Posted: Oct 30th 2010 10:34PM paterah said

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I can tell you what is wrong...Making a game where the game's ultimate point is big battles such as this one...

Posted: Oct 30th 2010 10:43PM axler said

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what is it with you people obsesed with themepark linear games that have endgames.

point of a sandbox is what you make of it. I did big battles, and I think they suck, you are just a soldier in a 1k army. I much more prefer small skirmish parties roaming around looking for targets, or other parties. go to lowsec, do piracy, harass people in wormholes...do whatever is fun to you.

the games ultimate point is to have fun, why would you be in big battles if they aren't fun to you.

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Posted: Oct 31st 2010 12:30AM paterah said

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My point is this actually...I love big battles but when their technology doesn't allow it then they simply shouldn't do it...10 mins of delay isn't fun after all is it?
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Posted: Oct 31st 2010 9:31AM Dirame said

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Have you ever played a game that allows you to fight alongside 3000 people without lag?

If you say yes, please say which game and why we haven't heard about it.
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Posted: Oct 31st 2010 11:41AM paterah said

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I never said I did. If today's technology doesn't allow for such big battles then they simply should limit it that's what I'm saying.
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Posted: Oct 31st 2010 4:38PM Dirame said

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By Brendan Drain;

"The issue with this is that people would use it to lock out an entire system. If the limit were 2000 players, one side would just need to bring 2000 and the enemy couldn't jump in. If they brought between 1000 and 2000, only some of the enemy would be able to jump in (giving a strong advantage). It'd make PvP a matter of who got into the system first with the biggest group, which is a problem."
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Posted: Oct 31st 2010 1:14AM Saintjude said

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Please tell me playing through a fight on this scale is as epic as it sounds!

Posted: Oct 31st 2010 6:49AM Psychotic Storm said

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Depends, if you consider a 10 min interval sideshow Epic, then it is as epic as it sounds, I wouldn't consider it, Epic, I would consider it a failure from the games side, it shouldn't allow things it cannot support.
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Posted: Oct 31st 2010 9:37AM Dirame said

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@Psychic Storm

By Brendan Drain;
"The issue with this is that people would use it to lock out an entire system. If the limit were 2000 players, one side would just need to bring 2000 and the enemy couldn't jump in. If they brought between 1000 and 2000, only some of the enemy would be able to jump in (giving a strong advantage). It'd make PvP a matter of who got into the system first with the biggest group, which is a problem."

That is in reply to your "they shouldn't allow numbers they can't handle" comment. As long as the server didn't crash I do believe they can "handle" it.
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Posted: Oct 31st 2010 6:11PM Psychotic Storm said

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Yes that could happen and it is not better than what happens without the cap, both lead to their own exploits.
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Posted: Oct 31st 2010 6:40PM Brendan Drain said

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@Psychotic Storm:
Some of the really big alliances used to deliberately bring so many players to a system attack or defense that the enemy wouldn't jump in as they'd all lag out and blackscreen. The lag very much favoured the people in the system first, since if the enemy jump in they have to load the entire grid and will be dead before they have control of their characters. CCP made a nice change a while back to make jumping something that happens on the other side of the gate now, meaning players can cancel a jump if they start lagging out. Jumping into those situations is no longer suicide, so that issue was addressed pretty well.

Similarly, people used to deliberately try to crash the node to prevent enemies from attacking. As was seen in this fight, the node no longer crashes under extreme load like it used to. If left to process the queue of commands it's got piled up, it eventually does catch up. Although the lag cripples both sides in a fight like that (with minutes of lag), it's entirely feasible to continue the fight and even win after jumping into such a system. In that regard, I'd say most of the downsides of the current system have been addressed as best they can be.

In comparison, hard pilot number caps would give alliances a very real way to deny access to the system that harms their enemy more than themselves. I really don't think we'd want to see nullsec warfare turned into stalemates with the biggest alliances preventing entry to their systems. In an ideal world, there would be mechanics like you're suggesting that encourage players to stay under the cap or keep them under it by force. In practice, finding an actual mechanic to do it that causes less problems than the current system is difficult.
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Posted: Oct 31st 2010 7:38PM Saintjude said

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I was speaking more along the lines of a PVP fight that is this large, not the amount of lag.

When I was playing FFXI, I loved participating in large battles like Besieged. If not for the lag, I would totally be into a battle on this scale.
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Posted: Oct 31st 2010 2:38AM (Unverified) said

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sweet

Posted: Oct 31st 2010 3:29AM (Unverified) said

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sounds like the "Marathon Battle" of Eve... coincidentally today is 2500 years since that battle :P

Posted: Oct 31st 2010 7:11AM (Unverified) said

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Oh sweet jesus, people are moaning that there is lag in a battle between 3000+ players?

There are two things to consider here, first of all the lag didn't really kick in untill there was over 1500-2000 players already fighting. How many other mmo's are you guys playing that gets anywhere near that number before there are lag issues?

Secondly I am not sure what mmo's some of you are playing, but please feel free to point out which other current mmo has battles in the order of hundreds, let alone thousands which have no lag issues.

I've also noticed people bemoaning the skill level required for pvp in EVE, well having pvp'd since the UO pre Trammel days I can safely say that aside from the likes of DF, EVE pvp requires more tactical forethought than 90% of the usual tab targetting facerolling affairs out there.

Posted: Oct 31st 2010 7:42AM Deadalon said

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Nowhere else will you get an event that makes it mark on an entire Universe. Compare it to 500 WOW servers and max of 40vs40 without lag.

That beeing said. There is no need to have battles that are over 1-2K ppl. If the game is very playable at that scale - then some sort of mecanic should be put in place to prevent bigger crowds. It should be pretty easy by just not allowing ppl to jump into the map. Easy to do and you could blame it on the ship computer not allowing jumps on danger of ship Collision.

Posted: Oct 31st 2010 7:46AM Brendan Drain said

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The issue with this is that people would use it to lock out an entire system. If the limit were 2000 players, one side would just need to bring 2000 and the enemy couldn't jump in. If they brought between 1000 and 2000, only some of the enemy would be able to jump in (giving a strong advantage). It'd make PvP a matter of who got into the system first with the biggest group, which is a problem.
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Posted: Oct 31st 2010 8:03AM Daelen said

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Likely the most excitement you can have in EVE and still just looking like a videocard memory failure with traces going off :D EVE is still for the Excel crowd.

Posted: Oct 31st 2010 8:16AM axler said

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I agree. but some people like that. the excel crowd :)

I like my games full of math and phisics. and I don't like twitch based games so much.

Some people prefer fast paced games with reflexes, some prefer those with strategy and thinking.

to each its own :)

now the interesting thing here is that CCP will be trying to combine those two. eve players will play strategic territorial wars in the planets of new eden. and the conflicts they generate will be the scenarios of a new fps game CCP is developing. so the two games will be linked.
as an eve player you move your troops around trying to take over other regions of the planet. and in the other game, dust514, players move around and actually fight those wars.
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Posted: Oct 31st 2010 11:24AM ChromeBallz said

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@jmmo

The reason for needing confirmation on data sent is simple: Preventing cheating. If you start sending out data without asking for confirmation in an environment like an online game you're just asking for a fatal desynchronization, where what you see on the client is not the same as on the server - Which is far, far worse than any lag.


The current bottleneck for the EVE servers is that they cannot spread the load between more than one node. They're looking into spreading one system over multiple nodes as necessary. Currently they're CPU bottlenecked because the thread can only run on one core. It's not that easy to spread because of, again, syncrhonization issues.


And, as has been mentioned before, the increase in stress on the servers with more players is exponential, not linear. 1 more than 3000 is a LOT more stressful than 1 more than 2 because the new data has to be calculated, sent and synchronized between a lot more people. If you add one player to a 2 player fight you only have to calculate and send the new data to 2 players. If you add one player to a 3000 player fight you have to calculate and send the new data to 3000 players. And each of those players' data has to be send to 3000 other players aswell. The problem is not as simple as some people make it out to be.

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