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Reader Comments (32)

Posted: Oct 12th 2010 4:35PM Dblade said

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I get the feeling that despite the near-constant coverage, this game is going to launch, get stable at 4k subs, and either fold or desperately retool itself to survive. I have yet to see any of the modern attempts of FFA PvP sandbox games flourish. They were saying similar about Fallen Earth before it launched, for example.

Posted: Oct 12th 2010 9:38PM Cavadus said

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Are you high? No one said of anything like about that Fallen Earth. In fact, FE is one of the biggest carebear PvE games on the market today.
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Posted: Oct 12th 2010 7:38PM (Unverified) said

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I have been watching this game for a while now... when I heard it was mainly PVP I was quite disappointed, but reading this article again fills me with hope that it will have substantial PVE content.

Jef, I agree with your arguments completely... I am just not interested in PVP, at all. It doesn't upset me or annoy me, I am just not interested, but I won't complain about the PVPers. That's what they like, so good for them... just leave me alone, because I play games for other reasons. That's why I play on an RP WoW server, and don't flag myself PVP in Fallen Earth.

I like Seffrid's idea of a PVE server, but either way I think I will still be giving this game a go when it is released. I like the lore and setting and hope it will fill the hole left by the Tabula Rasa shutdown...

Posted: Oct 12th 2010 11:34PM (Unverified) said

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Unfortunately there are very few mechanics in ER to keep people from bothering you. Mainly you'll have to stay in one of the two main cities - no one can fire weapons there.

Otherwise the game rewards people for PvPing anywhere - they get a cash reward for killing a character if the character had their items insured, or gets items if they didn't. Its not confirmed but it may also improve their faction standing, gaining them access to certain perks and bonuses. Plus there's the whole territorial conquest system which is PvP based and provides rewards in terms of rare materials.

What we don't know is if there is any reward for cooperative play. Currently if two players come across the same quest objective, one player is rewarded more by killing off the other player and completing their quest (all pve content has been confirmed as soloable). We don't know if there's anything in the game mechanics to encourage them to team up and work together.

So we end up with a game that promotes and rewards competition while leaving players who enjoy a cooperative gamestyle to find their own rewards.
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Posted: Oct 13th 2010 12:35AM claytondora said

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I love MMO's, I really do, but I hate mmo players. The worries over how much pvp will be implemented are inane. The vast majority of games played with other players are by definition pvp. Conflict is an essential part of video gaming. Making it sound like games that cater to this conflict are "for angry young men and their anti-social desires" is silly. I consider myself a well tempered adult, who isn't in the least a troll or a flame, and I absolutely love scenario's that are unpredictable and dynamic. I am more than willing to accept the downsides that such freedom entails, such as being ganked or losing gear. It forces you to adapt and to feel, both of which I quite enjoy doing while playing a video game.

Oh noes, pvp ruined my perfectly planned, super serene, mind numbing pve grind. Now I have to watch my back?!

And no, SWG had tons of FFA pvp, at least to those who declared a faction. A sandbox by definition is going to have much less rules that control gameplay. Whether this can be exploited in a pvp fashion or otherwise, the end result is the same: a loss of control over the world on the players part. It is those who despise this loss of control who make a ruckus about pvp.

So yes indeed, grow a pair, and if you are incapable of doing that or merely unwilling, flock to one of tons of games currently out, and in development, that allows you to tightly control your experience.

Posted: Oct 13th 2010 1:37AM Jef Reahard said

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Sure, SWG had tons of optional FFA PvP (emphasis on optional). It also had an equal (or perhaps greater) amount of things to do in the game other than combat. That's a sandbox, and that's the bloody obvious point that all the PvP parrots miss. Making a game that is solely focused on FFA PvP and empty of all those other social and crafting features is not a sandbox. You can get that combat rush and competition in Call of Duty if that's the extent of your imagination.

By all means, put FFA PvP in your sandbox. But don't neglect the guts of what makes a sandbox a sandbox instead of a glorified lobby shooter.

The only thing inane in this discussion is the misguided notion that sandbox must equal FFA PvP. The two are not related at all, other than the latter being an optional add-on to the former.
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Posted: Oct 13th 2010 9:37AM End Dream said

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@ Jef

Once in a blue moon? Aren't you exaggerating a little? I am currently playing WoW, the biggest PvE game MMO in the world, and I have to deal with ass-hats on a daily basis. When I log in, I know I am "guaranteed to experience it".

Also, the reason games like Darkfall have had low numbers is the same reason games like AoC have had low numbers. They were both released too early and with too many bugs / not enough content.

Most MMO's released end in disaster regardless of their design philosophy. It is a tough market.

I do agree with you however that a game with only PvE or only PvP really sells itself short. Darkfall finally realized this and so did EQ2. You need both for it to feel like a world.

Posted: Oct 13th 2010 10:10AM Jef Reahard said

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I haven't played WoW in quite a while, but I'm sure you're right about that (i.e. the asshat ratio being higher than normal due to the huge playerbase). So, for the PvE games that I'm currently playing, no it wasn't really an exaggeration.

I'm not sure you can compare Darkfall and AoC, even at launch (when AoC was a more PvP-focused game than it is now). One has FFA corpse looting, one has optional FFA servers (with no looting). That prevents a ton people from playing Darkfall right off the bat.

The cool thing about Darkfall is that it is one of the few FFA games that actually seems to be growing. Imo, that's because they've begun to add things to the game other than killing the same people over and over again.
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Posted: Oct 14th 2010 12:16AM (Unverified) said

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Jef, I really feel that you've played one game with FFA PvP, got killed, and then got really angry because the person who killed you disrupted your "I'm a God at PvE" mindset because you realized that actual players are much smarter and much more difficult than AI. I'd also be willing to bet that upon you dying, you had nobody to call on to avenge or protect you, so when you decided to go back and got killed again, you got even angrier. My suggestions to you are a bit complex, but stick with me and you might understand:

1. Don't play EarthRise. The ENTIRE game model was built around faction vs. faction PvP. There is of course room for PvE and crafters, they'll never isolate that, but the base for the game was PvP. Control points will be taken, zones will be conquered and cleared, and people will die. That just fits with the story of the Continoma vs. the Noir.

2. Join the Continoma. At least then when you get killed by a Noir soldier, you can call on the 47th to come and clear the sector. Not all PvPers are these romanticized adults with daddy issues. Some actually like to build story through conquest and defense of a nation. I can guarantee you though if you whine like this after you've just been killed, nobody in their right mind will even care to help you, leaving you alone in a game that was built on a foundation of PvP.

3. Realize that PvP is really just a more challenging and rewarding version of PvE, where the enemies actually react and think for themselves, sometimes falling into traps and ultimatums you laid out for them. PvP is like a raid that is always different every time you run it, with different rewards and experiences. It's not "you vs. some 12 year old who is hopped op on Mountain Dew and late for school" it's "you vs. a hero of the enemy faction."

Also, LEEEEEROOOYYYYYY JEEEENNNKKKIIINNNNSSSS was not a PvPer. And there's many more of him in the PvE community than in the PvP. The fact is, you're going to find immature gamers every where you go, so by stereotyping the PvP community as such, you're really only ignoring the bigger picture.

Posted: Oct 14th 2010 1:35AM Jef Reahard said

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Oy, I had this big long response typed out, then I realized it's not even worth it, lol. It's pretty simple. I was all over pre- (and post-)Trammel, I played AC-Darktide briefly, and I'm currently skilling up (and crafting of course) in Darkfall, so I might suggest we stick to facts rather than your feelings (although feelings are the mark of a carebear, so maybe there's hope for you yet :p).

I didn't play any of those games for the FFA PvP. I accepted it as part of the sandbox, but it's not what made it a sandbox. I'm still looking for a title that is going to pick up the UO torch and be a world as opposed to a game, and that's what I want out of Earthrise. There are plenty of shooters out there already.

Lastly, I would looooooove to meet these PvPers you speak of who like to build story through conquest and defense of a nation. That sounds impressively lofty. I've played with hundreds, maybe thousands of pixel killas since I picked up my first MMO, and not a one of them cared for much beyond exterminating the next red (and again, just to reiterate, that isn't stereotyping, nor is it painting all PvPers one way or the other, it's actual experience). Where might I find these PvP renaissance men you speak of?
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Posted: Oct 14th 2010 10:11AM End Dream said

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@ Jef

Followed is one of many examples of people who PvP to build a story. There are many (and did so in UO/DF etc):

http://yewmilitia.guildportal.com/Guild.aspx?GuildID=49357&TabID=1840720

Posted: Oct 14th 2010 11:50AM Jef Reahard said

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Interesting. I've seen those guys in Darkfall I think, the name sounds familiar. Thanks for the link.

/tiphat
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