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Reader Comments (84)

Posted: Sep 30th 2010 10:11AM Ardwulf said

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As ever, thanks for the link, but the whole point of the post was to put this silly idea to bed!

Posted: Sep 30th 2010 10:33AM ShawnSchuster said

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We're just giving it one more blanket as we tuck it in ;)

It's interesting fodder for discussion, at least.
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Posted: Sep 30th 2010 10:19AM ChaosInc said

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This is one of the few games where I support permadeath. Your vampire dies and turns to ash. Sorry but you don't have a shrine to rez from that like in other game lore. It would also promote careful play over rushing headlong into combat with no real consequences.

Defeated vampires don't resurrect. Ever. And it should he this way in the game as well.

Posted: Sep 30th 2010 10:33AM Super Nerd said

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There are certain aspects of lore/realism that just don't work in video games. PermaDeath would be a frustrating aspect. If they want to go in that direction, then I'd say the EVE style of things would be the closest they should go to it. Though I'm not entirely sure how it would work in this setting.

I just think in the end it would cause more frustration than fun, and these are games after all. Challenges and risks are good, but only to a certain extent.
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Posted: Sep 30th 2010 10:44AM (Unverified) said

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Given the number of casual oriented suggestions. Going with a dedicated hardcore design would lose a large number of potential players. The real question is; do the Dev's think they can replace these casual players with hardcore players? I would personally suggest server rule sets that go beyond the usual PvP/PvE types. But, realistically, I don't see a developer going to that much trouble.
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Posted: Sep 30th 2010 10:47AM (Unverified) said

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If you defeat a vampire, and do not separate its head from its body, or maul its body to the extreme, it will enter torpor. It will remain in this state until something with blood gets in range, be it human or animal.

This is comparable to what happened to Lestat de Lioncourt in Interview with the Vampire.

Since humans do not know vampires exists, it is plausible that they will consider the vampire dead when in torpor. The danger of final death usually stems from more extreme happenings, or when battling another vampire. (But it's not allowed to kill another vampire, unless ordered by the authority of the City, so vampires rarely kill each other)

Other supernaturals are the most dangerous, especially werewolves.

Torpor is a mechanism that is within the system of the game and the lore, and could be used as a death mechanism in this game. I'd support a hybrid death mechanism; ordinary world PvE and PvP is not instadeath, but results in torpor which have many penalties. But if you violate the Masquarade enough, and the Prince puts a blood hunt on your ass, it's permanent death when your vampire colleagues tear you apart.
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Posted: Sep 30th 2010 12:10PM Skyydragonn said

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well that really depends on what type of damage the vampire suffered. in WoD lore vampires take half damage from bashing damage, can soak(reduce the damage taken through armor etc) lethal damage from slashing/stabbing etc. bullets count as bashing damage to vampire. the only ways to really kill a vampire in WoD are what is refered to as agravatted damage, thingslike fire, sunlight, radiation etc. granted its been about 10 years since I've touched the tabletop though i still have 2 full bookshelves full of WoD books fram the various games. >.>

The problem with permadeath in an MMO game isn't a simple problem.
how do you handle PvP combat where circumstances outside the players control can result is a substantial loss of a players effort? for example how often do you see people get randomly Disconnected during fights in other games, would you like to lose your 7th generation Toreador due to a network hiccup at your ISP?
Or losing your hard work becuase some guy in brazil is lagging so bad you can't begin to hit him effectively.
its not such a simple problem to solve which is why MMORPGs avoid the concept almost entirely. It's bad enough in games that allow other players to loot your corpse that these types of issues arise. Permadeath is one of those concepts that just doens't fit the genre well at all.

besies how would you handle any type of boss encounter with that type if mechanic in place? have the entire guild/clan on stanby to port in as players dropped off/died?

TL;DR- Its a monumentally bad idea for many many many reasons.
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Posted: Sep 30th 2010 10:38AM (Unverified) said

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If they are as serious as they seem to be about meaningful player politics; then permadeath or smiliarly serious concequences have to be on the table. The thing about V:TM that makes it unique is the huge risk-vs.-reward gameplay.

At the Grand Masquerade, I had the opportunity to play in several HUGE Live-Action-Roleplay games, including one which had a massive 135+ participant combat. Lines were drawn, risks were taken, and characters died... if there had been no weight to the concequences, then the victory would have meant nothing.

I think this is why many players who try to establish politics and RP in conventional MMO's find frustration.

Posted: Sep 30th 2010 12:14PM Skyydragonn said

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Ita a game outside of the context of the game being played does the victory mean anyway? Congradulations you outsmarted same other random guy on the internets, here's your digital cookie, that btw we keep when you stop paying for our game service....Is it really that important?
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Posted: Sep 30th 2010 10:41AM (Unverified) said

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Diablo 2 had Permadeath with their Hardcore Servers. I rather liked that aspect of the game. It made the game much more fun then a melee game it made it a mindgame that required skill and caution.

Posted: Sep 30th 2010 10:58AM Xavious said

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I agree with permadeath being a frustrating aspect in a video game. It may sound cool and hardcore at first, but after a few deaths I bet it would not be fun.

Imagine rerolling for the ?th time and being so careful in the game world that you second guess yourself on every move and be come so timid that it is no longer fun, then from out of nowhere your dead...again...after being sooo careful.

That might be enough to make the vast majority of gamers cancel their subscriptions. I guess it can be a niche game for the few, but not sure how it will grow and improve if not enough people play it.

Posted: Sep 30th 2010 10:49AM dudes said

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Interesting but there are ways of coming back even in the RPG. Might take a thousand years or so but perma-death is for the mortals. er, oh yeah, out of character, I would support permadeath only if a certain ritual had been performed on the character called Diablerie, which is where the soul and life of a vampire is sucked into another. The victim vampires soul is literally eaten and consumed by another vampire.

Otherwise, I would incur a penalty for being rezzed, but that would be the only permadeath that would make sense as a gameplay element to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diablerie

Posted: Sep 30th 2010 10:55AM Gaugamela said

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That wouldbe an interesting mechanic. But it would have such an impact on gameplay that the entire game would have to be designed around it (almost no level progression, skill based gameplay).
They should look to EVE for interesting alternatives to permadeath though. Make permadeath possible but hard to achieve. Or create a permadeath mechanic that allows to transfer your stats/progression to a new character (while losing all the equipment and wealth? an inheritance system).

Posted: Sep 30th 2010 10:50AM yojibalinese said

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Famine over on the Secret World forums addressed why, from a dev and customer service stand point, it is a logistical nightmare to have permadeath in an MMO:


"I think it would be super hard to make this work in the sense of having players stay active on the server where we could support it. The reason I say that is because it would be a minority of players who want something that hard.

Generally, when it comes to perm-death, it's a pain to manage because you always have those group of people who try to stay alive forever. Then when they die in-game it becomes a serious issue for the players. I think it would become a nightmare to provide support on our end and then all the concerns with how they actually died would come into play over-and-over again."

From here: http://darkdemonscrygaia.com/showpost.php?p=376160&postcount=22

Posted: Sep 30th 2010 12:26PM Pagan said

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The difference between Funcom and CCP explains the different take on permadeth. Funcom is after the more casual player with TSW. They need a large subscriber base to appease their stock holders. CCP, as is evident with EVE is catering to a different gamer. Im sure they would.be happy with 1 million subs. But I don't think they are designing their game around that goal. CCPs strength has always been in not catering to the mainstream gamer.
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Posted: Sep 30th 2010 1:35PM Its Utakata stupid said

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As a non-mainstream player, I can most assure you Pagan, that I do not want to have permadeath in my game. Ever.
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Posted: Oct 1st 2010 2:15PM (Unverified) said

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Do it! I dare CCP to do it! I am sick and tired of these pathetic, candy-ass-bullshit games. ALL games should be permanent death. That's true roleplay. Make you think twice about risking your character just to fuck with people. It will show true talent in a game. Not just a bunch off all the same ol same ol. It'll give respect to these games, cause they have very little with the direction they are goin. They are just cheap time killers.

Posted: Sep 30th 2010 11:03AM willflynne said

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Going by that list, I think some of the people that were in attendance need to relax a bit about the property and gain some realistic expectations about what might and might not be possible in the game. The "don't let others break my immersion" comments in particular stand out. As far as I'm concerned in MMOs, the only way someone else can break your immersion is if you let them do so.

As far as permadeath, that's going to be tricky to handle. Yes, it makes sense for the lore and the subject matter, but having to re-roll a new character every single time you die would get tiresome rather quickly, never mind losing a character that you may have spent a lot of time and effort building. It didn't last too long as a consequence for gaining Jedi status in the early days of SWG for the very same reasons. It sounds like something that would be more trouble than it's worth.

Posted: Sep 30th 2010 11:40AM Snichy said

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Yeah, if ever there was a game that will make the fanboys and lore-nerds froth at the mouth its this one. I predict much activity over every single piece of information released over the next year or so and if its not "acceptable" or "consistent" with the lore even if its damn impossible to implement in an MMO, just watch the tidal wave of hate...!
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Posted: Sep 30th 2010 11:08AM Jeromai said

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Well, it'll have to be treated right. So far, permadeath has worked tolerably well in roguelikes and spin-offs like Diablo where it is either part of the game, or as a hardcore option. Crucially, roguelikes are about mainly about player vs environment, and permadeath is an increase in difficulty and challenge level.

Lore-wise, for WoD, it makes more sense to have environment enemies not kill off a vampire, but for heinous player Hunters or Diablerists to condemn a vampire to Final Death. It just can't be too easy - ie. not achievable on a throwaway character, or you'll have coteries of vampires taking turns to off each other to the point that the server disintegrates into anarchy and everyone runs off. It also has to come with consequences.

ATITD is a small game of 300-500 people where one notable is made a Demipharoah (DP) every month by community vote. A DP has the power of a permanent ban on the name, essentially permadeath to that character and a little more in the sense of invalidating a subscription tied to that name. They are limited to 7 uses. They can't affect a vengeful player returning under another name (or paying for another subscription for that name) unless they use another ban or get a fellow DP to help out. The entire cooperative nature of the culture makes it very unlikely a ban gets used, mostly they mediate.

WoD-wise, perhaps a Prince can Exile or call a Blood Hunt on a certain character, given a whole bunch of factional and political checks and balances. A random anarch turned Diablerist with no friends might find himself getting ripped apart by loyalist hounds in a hurry. An assassin hired by a faction or two to remove some other vampire might be better protected, or he might get sacrificed as a pawn in some political maneuvering - "Who? Never saw him in my life!"

Thing is, if you can permadeath someone who has a bunch of time/skills invested in it, your character should have just as heavy an investment of effort in order to be able to do so, and be just at risk for being lost for good. You'd have to treat vampire characters like Eve ships, never undock or step out of Elysium something you're not willing to lose. :)

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