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Reader Comments (41)

Posted: Sep 21st 2010 1:29PM (Unverified) said

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I plan on RP'ing my character as a Gray Jedi. Not from the stand point of moral relativism, but from the standpoint of the ends justify the means. You need to crack a few eggs to make an omelette. I like Qui-Gon's character mainly because he follows his own code of honor, and does what he believes is right and doesn't need a complex set of rules to tell him whats what. So it's ok to kill a bitch as long as he/she started it.

Posted: Sep 21st 2010 1:31PM Larry Everett said

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I hate to tell you, Jeremy, but you've practically defined Moral Relativism there.
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Posted: Sep 21st 2010 3:10PM (Unverified) said

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sshhhh... don't tell anyone. lol.

i was rushed in my thinking at the end of my lunch break lol.
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Posted: Sep 21st 2010 1:24PM vicryixiv said

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I could easily see "the greater good" coming up frequently while being a gray jedi.

Trading 1 life for 1000 for example (or more) would be morally questionable but would be a choice that could adhere to the letter of the code but not the spirit.

Making those kinds of numerical judgement calls is the first step on a slippery slope towards the dark side.

Posted: Sep 21st 2010 1:26PM Vrazule said

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I'm with the Potentium on this. The belief that positive energy (Ions) are good and negative energy (electrons) are evil is really quite silly. The fact that you can learn techniques from either side without having to make moral decisions beforehand has been stated in books and lore. Both Dark and Light side powers are enhanced by emotions, whether it be hate, love, joy, despair and so forth. Has anyone ever even bothered to think that force lightning could be enhanced by positive emotions as well as negative?

It seems to me that the Jedi Order tries to squash all emotions, positive and negative as a means to not only control it's members, but in the hope that muted emotions will help keep them centered. While the Dark Order merely stresses the darker emotions, also as a means to control it's members and because it's easier in the stress of combat to hate than it is to love or feel joy.

In my book, both are merely philosophies, not immutable laws of nature.

Posted: Sep 21st 2010 1:37PM Larry Everett said

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I love this argument from a character development standpoint. It makes for a very interesting character if he believes that the Force is just a tool. Although, canon does say there is definitely a light side and dark side, but where that line is draw seems to be extremely ambiguous.

The Jedi Sourcebook also says that the Potentium is corrupt. But, wow, does it make it fun to have a character that is constantly fighting the pull of the Dark Side while justifying it to do good.
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Posted: Sep 21st 2010 4:14PM (Unverified) said

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Hmm, I never really thought of it that way.

Instead of a Light side (no emotion) or Dark side (negative emotion) you also have a Happy side focusing on positive emotions.

"Luke, you do not yet realize your importance. You've only begun to discover your happiness! Join me, and I will complete your training! With our combined joyousness, we can end this destructive conflict, and bring love to the galaxy."
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Posted: Sep 21st 2010 5:37PM (Unverified) said

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http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Electric_Judgment would be a light-side version of Force Lightning

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Posted: Sep 21st 2010 9:45PM Nero823 said

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I like the concept of the Unifying Force. Mostly because of how it's used in the EU stories. Kinda sorta Legacy of the Force spoilers.... but if you know anything about those books, you know what I'm about to talk about. Jacen Solo was a believer in the Unifying Force. He tried to convince Luke to teach that instead of the more traditional stuff that he did. And Luke was all "....No". Luke had enough experience with the Dark Side (and a redemption or two) to know that it's very much real and can get a tight grip on those who underestimate it. But Jacen wouldn't have it. He continued to hold his beliefs and with his guard down, believing that he couldn't fall as long as his intentions were good. Next thing you know.... Darth Caedus.

I find it an interesting idea that when someone loses faith, stops believing that the Force has a will of it's own, they open themselves up to darkness. But Potentium and the Unifying Force have been outright stated to be false, and even if it weren't, the above story kind of shows it to be anyway.

Also, the Jedi are not about no emotion. They are about emotional control. The reason the Old Jedi Order restricted things like marriages and families is because they are very strong emotions, and tragedy strikes Jedi often. They saw it as a recipe for disaster. But if you take a look at the New Jedi Order, none of that stuff was restricted. There was no plucking children to keep their bonds minimal or anything like that. And they were still very much Jedi.
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Posted: Sep 21st 2010 1:32PM jpkustra said

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Nice article.

I'm concerned with Bioware making this too much of a guided storyline where you can't blurr the lines without it having a negative impact on you somehow. I would hope that Lucas lays out some guildelines for this sort of dilemma. And really, if you can be a good or bad character, what's your motive to do one and not the other? Better gear for being "good"? Horrible idea and I hope that's not the direction they take it.

Posted: Sep 21st 2010 1:40PM Larry Everett said

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Daniel Erickson did say that they are looking at a "good" middle-ground. And if BioWare has nothing else, they have good writers. I believe there will be some very interesting "endings" for those who choose to walk the anti-hero line.
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Posted: Sep 21st 2010 1:41PM (Unverified) said

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My toon will be Light side Jedi. The danger of the Grey Jedi is that "once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny."

Posted: Sep 21st 2010 1:48PM Brianna Royce said

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Of course, that isn't actually true, given how many times Luke Skywalker fell to the dark side and was subsequently redeemed. :D

I have always loved the idea that the different Jedi Orders in different eras struggle with the same problems and questions, and that the Order in the Clone Wars era has actually arrived at some well-meaning but unsustainable rules and regulations in reaction to eras before, including the period SWTOR will be set in.
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Posted: Sep 21st 2010 1:58PM Arkane said

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I have yet to decide if my alt (ï'm going Smuggler) will be a Jedi or a Sith, but i'd love to be on the Grey side of things if i rolled a Jedi. If i did go Sith However, i'd be totally Evil.

Posted: Sep 21st 2010 2:16PM Dblade said

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I don't think a gray jedi can work. I think its due to ignorance of how the Force is portrayed, as well as Lucas's clumsy retconning in episode 1-3.

The Force in the original films at least to me was never portrayed as moral. The Light and Dark sides are human reactions to an impersonal power based on emotional state, not morality. Negative emotions hit the Force, get amplified and fed back, and so you have the Dark side. Same with the Light side of the force, but it seems to have less effect.

"Gray" though is a term of morality. You can't really blend those kinds of emotions into a gray: all anger leads to the Dark side, while all positive emotions like love lead to the Light. Just touching the Force means you'd have to swing towards one side or the other.

Lucas screwed it all up when he started on the Force choosing Anakin, and the concept of balance in the force, which makes little sense. Also the expanded universe writers did the same, forgetting what made Jedi was their emotional control and serenity, not being badasses with lightsabers. While the Force can reinforce a Jedi's moral attitudes, its more because I think they reinforce the mental states. People filled with hatred tend to lash out, serene people tend to not do so and value things due to less turbulence. It'd be interesting to see an "evil" light side Jedi though, because not all evil is emotional.

Bioware is pushing gray I think to fit in with the good/selfish/snarky aspects of their dialogue trees.

Posted: Sep 21st 2010 2:16PM Oskiee said

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See, its discussions like this that keep me interested in Star Wars and Jedi.

I dont want to be a jedi because i want to wave around a lightstick, i want to be a jedi because i want to play a character that understands hes an imperfect, immoral, and naturally evil person welding a power that is much greater than himself, and also understands that depending on how he wields this power can determine the fate of millions. And if he succumbs to his natural desires, said millions can die for it. Does he actually want that?

Thus is the struggle of the Jedi path. Denying what you want for what is right.

I cant wait to play this game :ODD

Posted: Sep 21st 2010 2:31PM Larry Everett said

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That is very much like the Knights Templar approach to Jedi, which is my personal favorite way of looking at it. And it some of my favorite characters are those who are in a constant struggle between self-desire and doing the right thing.

Keep me up to date on what your character does once the game launches. I will be very interested.
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Posted: Sep 21st 2010 2:35PM vjohnson said

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The only problem with the idea of the "Grey Jedi" is that too many people are going to use it as an excuse to have all the benefits of being a Jedi without wanting to take on the consequences. At least that's what I see a lot of when I've played the Saga Edition RP game. A lot of people have seen the likes of Kyle Katarn who used whatever power he wanted and in the end it was his ultimate decisions that mattered more than the fact he fragged someone with Force Lightning. There's a reason in Saga you get Dark Side points for certain Force Powers and it isn't because they wanted to arbitrarily declare that a power was evil but because it was from the Dark Side.

Even Cade Skywalker, who uses Force Lightning to "resuscitate" people is stated on many occasions to be pulling from the Dark Side to get the lightning even if using it for good.

So while good to get in and not just have kicking puppies mean you're evil and giving to Charity being good like in KotOR...there's going to be a lot of people who use it as an excuse to have a laser sword and cool powers while not really thinking about consequences.

Posted: Sep 21st 2010 9:47PM Lionhearted said

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The trick to solving that problem is game balance. The decisions characters make, and how that influences them on the dark/light scale, is supposed to bring with it certain powers -- so gray jedi are going to have some different powers available to them than jedi in the teacher's pet mold, who will have different powers available to them than jedi that go completely bad. The trick is to make sure no matter how evil or good your jedi (or other character class) is, they can get really cool and meaningful powers that are balanced. That way, players are only picking how to respond to moral questions based on how they want to play their characters, not based on wanting to min/max their characters.
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Posted: Sep 21st 2010 2:43PM (Unverified) said

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I'm guessing most of you posting here never played KOTOR I or II because the definition of the ends justify the means is entirely Sith. For instance Jeremy post of being a Jedi & following your own code of what you believe is right is were a Sith would argue thats their justification. What separates a Jedi from Sith is the ability for unselfish gain through patience and hard work, when a Sith beliefs are the opposite,in the here and now and how they stand to benefit themselves. KOTOR made a great example of this when I choose money as a reward but I choose it honestly thinking about it so that I could have bought that armor set I needed badly. Whenever I did this I would gain dark side points because I was not being selfless. I found myself going down the dark side which was unintentional but an awesome and true result. So I will close by saying what makes an individual remain a Jedi even though he might have made dark choices is that he wrestles and is not at peace with himself because inside he knows what he is doing is not right and in turn will seek guidance from a mentor so he doesn't fall. What in turn would make him a Sith is if he starts to embraces his choices and starts to accept the dark side. Good job Bioware! Please continue to make this game a masterpiece, woot!

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