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Reader Comments (30)

Posted: Sep 1st 2010 3:06PM Kcirrot said

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"So the net effect is that stalkers are now very slightly fragile single-target melee DPS with good initial damage, good ongoing damage, and a really useful AoE debuff. So honestly, at this point, I have to question if it's stalkers that are useless on teams, or the more-popular scrappers; a scrapper is just a stalker who traded away all of a stalker's useful abilities for a couple of more hit points."

Well, there's also the whole thing about Scrappers having significantly better AoE damage, which in the majority of the content in City of Heroes is better than what a Stalker brings to a team.

Posted: Sep 1st 2010 3:57PM Valdamar said

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Yeah but a lot of Scrappers in the game just make a bee-line for the bosses. It would be far more optimal if the Scrappers/Brutes went after the minions/lieuts and left bosses and above to the Stalker (assuming all were present on a team) - although of course there are exceptions, such as Electric Melee being far better at area damage than Dark Melee, regardless of whether you're playing a Scrapper or a Stalker (or indeed a Brute).
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Posted: Sep 1st 2010 3:52PM mattwo said

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I'm sorry but when it comes to SFs/TFs and tough missions with a bunch of bosses like metronome and Preatonain Vanessa DeVore MMs come in handy when you lack Doms or Trollers with decent CC power.

Posted: Sep 1st 2010 3:51PM Valdamar said

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Yeah I don't think we'll see any new epic archetypes, but I think we'll be waiting a long time for most Hazard Zones to go co-op. I'd like to see Dark Astoria at the head of the queue, considering how atmospheric it is, but I suspect the 4 Shadow Shard zones will get the treatment first.

I wouldn't hold your breath, though, as I suspect we'll still see more new zone content than revamped zones in the foreseeable future - in fact I bet they'll want to add on to Praetoria with content for all level ranges, rather than touching any old pre-CoV content.

Posted: Sep 2nd 2010 9:16AM Valdamar said

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@Tempes Magus

I agree with what you say in principal, but in practice there's no way they could add enough content to Praetoria for L20-50 quickly enough. Though I do have a feeling they will focus on bolting all new content from now onwards to Praetoria rather than Paragon City and the Rogue Isles, though.

Interestingly one of my RL friends started playing CoH a few days ago, never having played it before, and for his first character he was forced to go to Praetoria - no option to start as a Hero or Villain in Paragon or RI like existing players get - so the devs are pretty much pushing Praetoria as the default starting area (and considering how dull the 6 year old hero-side newbie content is I don't think that's a bad thing).

I think in some ways Praetoria is like a soft relaunch of the game and the Devs would really love to ditch the old CoH/CoV content if they had the time to make enough new zones/quests to have a full game taking place in Praetoria - but they just can't because the game needs that breadth of content that the old zones in Paragon and the Rogue Isles offer.

Plus a lot of the playerbase would be up in arms if the old content vanished - I would be too - there's still some amazing stuff in the old content (Seer Marino, Viridian, all of RWZ, several of the TF/SFs, etc) it's just you sometimes have to dig through a lot of old stuff to get to it - plus some of us vets are just jaded by having played that content for 5 years - for new players it's still fresh content, even if a lot of the hero-side Paragon City stuff in particular is looking very long in the tooth and a bit "old school" (such as all the hunt missions to kill 10 of this, or 50 of that).

I think we will see a lot more co-op though and the lines blurring between hero & villain (GR has already done that) - it just makes sense to develop content that all players can experience rather than content that only one faction can experience. As the article says I can see more Hazard Zones going co-op, just like RWZ did, but I don't think that is as likely as new co-op zones being developed that are basically set on Praetorian Earth rather than Primal Earth, or even in other parallel dimensions***. I still remember the devs saying that revamping a zone like RWZ or Faultline takes about the same amount of time as making a completely new zone - the players want 6-year-old zones revamped because they're a bit of an embarrassment to the game as it is now, but as far as the devs are concerned the old zones are still content, so adding a new zone effectively expands how much content the game has - and that is a selling point for PR purposes.

*** lets face it, some Rikti Earth zones covering some of that L20-50 content gap post-Praetoria should be an absolute shoe-in - lore-wise they could have the Restructurist faction of Rikti starting to make small raids on Praetorian Earth, because their assault on Primal Earth has stalled (they probably wouldn't get very far against Emperor Cole's methods, though :p ).
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Posted: Sep 1st 2010 8:15PM Daemodand said

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Instead of more co-op zones, CoH would benefit greatly from competitive zones.

Posted: Sep 2nd 2010 9:53AM Valdamar said

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Well I have the inf to afford the best builds - 6 fully purpled-up builds in total (though 4 of those are on both of the builds of my Arachnos Widow and Arachnos Soldier) - and billions of inf sat around on various characters for future builds - and I still don't enjoy PvP in CoH - in fact I've never enjoyed PvP in MMORPGs at all, because it is too "rock-paper-scissors" - too many occasions when either:

a) you run into someone who will completely annihilate you, and you have no chance to survive;
or
b) you run into someone and completely annihilate them, and they have no chance to respond.

And I just find that very very dull.

It is incredibly rare that you have a fair match-up where both players have a fair chance. CoH is almost worse because like DAoC it was built for team/realm vs team/realm PvP, but unlike DAoC (the only MMORPG where I've enjoyed PvP somewhat) there's not really much incentive for team/realm vs team/realm PvP - because most of the PvP rewards are still individual rewards - and all the faction vs faction stuff is confined to the PvP zones which the majority of CoH's players don't care about and never set foot in - and that's a good thing for the PvE-only players, but it makes the PvP suck imho.

But CoH, unlike DAoC, has the problem that a lot of MMORPGs have - it was built first as a PvE game and then PvP was bolted on to the side of it (Issue 4 for PvP Arenas, CoV/I6 introduced PvP zones) - DAoC was built with PvP in mind first and foremost, so of course it is going to provide a superior PvP experience.

Note that I absolutely adore PvP in FPS games, whether MMOFPS like Planetside, just regular multiplayer (I love the Battlefield series), or even console stuff like Halo. In FPS games PvP is more about tactics and your own reflexes/coordination and I much prefer that (FPS games are generally built for PvP first as well, with PvE as the afterthought) - in MMORPGs it isn't so much players competing against each other, in fact they should rename PvP in MMORPGs to CvC - Character vs Character. As a player you're just not as important to the outcome of a fight as how well your character is geared - the time/virtual-cash you've spent is usually more important than your own skill/wits.

CoH's PvP zones are also about the only place you'll find really rude people - I know a lot of it is tongue-in-cheek "trash talking", but not all, and it just alienates those who aren't in the PvPers little clique - and in many cases drives new people away swearing never to try PvP again.

The I13 PvP changes didn't help either - hardcore PvPers don't like it when the balance of power shifts, and when the Dev Castle tried to make PvP fairer for all (to try and encourage PvEers to try PvP again) he just ended up alienating all the hardcore PvPers whose expensive dominating builds had just become a bit more average - and most PvP vets threw their toys out of the pram and quit.

So yeah - there's PvP in CoH, but very few people bother with it - especially on the EU servers where I play.

But because you didn't elaborate on what you meant by competitive zones, Daemodand, I would just like to add that I would love to see some competitive PvE zones/missions added to the game - such as a Task/Strike Force where a Hero team was trying to achieve an objective before a Villain team - both would get rewards at the end but the "winner" would get better rewards. I think that would be awesome and entirely in the spirit of CoH - you wouldn't even need PvP in it.

It could be stuff as simple as Heroes trying to get to a VIP to protect him while Villains try to get there to kidnap him - and have the VIP in a single instanced room in the centre of a base (protected by Paragon/Praetorian Police perhaps), and the heroes and villains start on different sides of the base in different instances and have to try and reach him first. There could be checkpoints in each map and when the hero team hits a certain checkpoint it is announced to the villain time, and vice versa, to encourage efficiency and speed. But have objectives that need to be completed along the way so people didn't just get a stalker to "ghost" to the end.
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Posted: Sep 2nd 2010 10:34PM Valdamar said

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Yeah FPSs are way more streamlined - they just need more depth, progression and persistence like MMOs have - but they're getting there - according to my Steam profile I've put MMO levels of time into Borderlands, FPS gameplay is making inroads into mainstream MMOs with games like Global Agenda, and forthcoming games like Brink (due out next year) seem like they will take the merger between FPS and RPG gameplay in an online space even further. And I have high hopes for Planetside 2, even with SOE behind the wheel - Planetside 1 did a lot of things right. The WH40K MMO Dark Millennium Online might be shaping up quite nicely as an MMOFPS too (though I don't know enough about the gameplay to say for sure).

Good times ahead.
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Posted: Sep 1st 2010 9:55PM (Unverified) said

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They had a mix-and-match power system years ago wayyy back in CoH beta but abandoned it in favour of the archetype system because it was too easy to make characters that were completely fotm invincible or completely gimped.

By the look of CO, Cryptic's still not completely cracked it. Regardless, mix and match powers are not something Paragon's very likely to do - at this point it really wouldn't benefit anyone to change the very foundation the entire game balance is built upon.

Posted: Sep 2nd 2010 10:18AM Valdamar said

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The problem with CO I found was that it was well known that a lot of powers were totally gimp and other powers were must-haves. This is always the problem in skill/power-based games with no classes - it ends up being more cookie-cutter than class-based games because anyone who wants to be really effective just gravitates towards the same builds.

Also the perks and bonuses on powers in CO weren't that well documented (admittedly CoH was terrible for obfuscating the effects of powers early in its life, until "real numbers" were added) so people were mroe likely to use cookie-cutter combinations that were proven to work than figure things out for themselves.

CoH's powerset system at least makes for strong concepts and themes - maybe you're a fire & ice guy, rather than a mish-mash of different powers and stats in CO dragged from different frameworks just because they were optimal - for concept reasons I tried to stick with a single framework in CO (Archery, then again with Power Armour) and it was just very poor compared to mix & match.

Also I much prefer how CoH doesn't have any core stats like other MMOs (i.e. STR, CON, etc) - you just get direct improvements to powers or primary statistics such as endurance regeneration or hit points. Instead of having to worry how a stat like STR will actually affect your build you know exactly what a bonus or power is giving you in CoH.

As for epic archetypes in CoH, I love all but one of them (Peacebringer), but all 4 are pretty much hybrids - a bit like CoV's 5 normal archetypes were - with CoH's original 5 normal archetypes tending to fit the usual class roles from MMOs - i.e. tank, melee dps, ranged dps, heal/buff/debuff support, control/support.

And in CoH, unlike other MMOs, being a hybrid is preferable to being too focused imho (unless you team ALL the time), because self-sufficiency is so valued. I think the problem comes when people expect the epics to be so much more powerful than the normal archetypes, and really they're not - though they can be extremely powerful built right - admittedly my 2 VEATs and Warshade have pretty expensive and ludicrously powerful builds - my Blaster also has a similar value build and is just as stupidly powerful.

MMs and Brutes don't need as much spent on them to be as capable, but they don't have the same flexibility as epics either (my tri-form Warshade can tank or blast pretty well, depending which form he uses, and also do a bit of control - my VEATs can melee, blast, control, debuff, buff, etc., some do better at some things than others depending which build they use). And that's where epics win - they're jacks-of-all-trades (and can still come close to mastering a few) - but some players hate them cos they just want to be very good at one job and not have to spend a fortune to do it.

I'm not sure we need any more epics though - not unless there's a very strong lore reason for including them. Though I could probably go for a Longbow epic built like a VEAT that branched into either a Ballista or a Warden. But really I think future epics should only be introduced if they came with a new bodyshape/type though (a bit like Crab Spiders get the spider arms on their back - and I could go for a tarantula VEAT that branched into either a Toxic or a Mistress/Queen, but it's hard to see how it would really differ from a Crab Spider or Fortunata in gameplay), or perhaps more shapeshifting like Kheldian Peacebringers/Warshades get - powers that would be very hard to integrate into existing powersets for the ten "normal" non-epic archetypes.

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