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Reader Comments (93)

Posted: Aug 27th 2010 8:06AM Pingles said

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I hate grinding. Faction grinding is why I quit WoW.


However, I love killing mobs. Just love it. Especially if the game makes it interesting with a good quest story or clever mob mechanics (like mobs that smack-talk).

But I normally have to wander a bit. I can't take it if I am in the same area killing the same mob for too long.

On those days where I get a bunch of time to kill mobs if I start getting diminishing results I'd likely lose interest in that game.

Posted: Aug 27th 2010 10:58AM (Unverified) said

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Agreed. Additionally, the author of this article seems to have missed the entire point of the negative reactions that have occurred. People are not angry that they cannot grind, people are angry because the devs are basically telling us how to spend our time playing the game. You may reply "But all devs do that by designing their games to have zones that the players have to go through in a set order!" Yes, they can, but SE seems to think they can dictate how we spend our time playing; it isn't enough that we have to pay a monthly subscription to play the game, we cannot decide for ourselves how much time we want to spend on a character we enjoy. How anyone can defend that line of thinking is beyond me.

This author here comes off as someone who doesn't like what he's seeing about a game he likes, so he's trying to justify it. Please take it from me, unless you're on SE's payroll to spin this, frankly retarded decision, don't.
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Posted: Aug 27th 2010 8:11AM Wic said

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No we do not have to grind to enjoy ourselves but at the same time I personally refuse to purchase a game that limits my choices. Some days or weeks I have little work and can game alot other times I have to work solidly and no time for gaming. I want to play my game when I choose and within that game have full access to content and proceed as I wish.

Posted: Aug 27th 2010 8:21AM (Unverified) said

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This comment pretty much expresses my opinion. I overall hate grinding, but if I want to veg out and play a game for a whole weekend, I'd hate losing progress for half of it because I passed some arbitrary limit even more.
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Posted: Aug 27th 2010 9:29AM DevilSei said

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Exactly what zaz said, this article alone is just insulting and hiding opinions.

I am an outsider to the Final Fantasy MMOs, I tried the trial for 11 for a brief stint but couldn't stand it as well. Yet at the same time, I'm smart enough to know when a company is introducing a mechanic whose sole purpose is to FORCE players to play, at maximum, the rate the developers want. Its their way of hiding the fact theres no endgame.

And just like most every single MMO dev out there, they heavily under-estimate the players. If their "limit" is meant to last about 8-12 hours of exp, most players will hit the cap in just 4-6.

Grind is purely subjective, and in the article's case assuming heavily on nothing but the fact that a majority hates being limited to the amount they get. Its a grind if you aren't enjoying the game.

But hey, since we hate grinds, then, as an example, lets limit your salary to 400$ a week at maximum. You can keep working after that, sure, but no overtime, no extra pay, and even if you get a promotion, thats all you'll earn. That way you don't have to "grind" for money.
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Posted: Aug 27th 2010 11:54AM GRT said

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So don't buy it.

Opting not to buy it is one thing... going all nerd rage because they're trying something you don't like is just childish.

There are plenty of other games to play.
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Posted: Aug 27th 2010 1:15PM Its Utakata stupid said

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"...this article alone is just insulting and hiding opinions."

Not only that devilsei, I find this article disingenuous and presumptuous in assuming all those who dislike FF14 fatigue leveling mechanic must love grinding. Where does the writer get the evidence to make such a claim? Did he ask each and everyone of us posting Massively this? This seems to border on trolling at best.

So here's a statiscal flaw in that presumption: I neither like grinding or any imposed fatigue leveling mechanic. And it's not contradictory position. When I immerse myself in a game, and if it's engaging enough I will play for hours of a lenghty time; 8 hrs can seem like 2 - thus simply losing myself. When I start hitting a wall where it feels grindy, I start to play it for far shorter periods of time....or go and work on something else because I've lost interest. This is far different from the claim of the writer, where I would be spending more hours if I loved grinding. But he's also made the claim I love grinding because I hate the fatigue mechanic being imposed in FF14. So what's with that? /boggle
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Posted: Aug 27th 2010 8:13AM (Unverified) said

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I prefer a variety of activities to spend my time on. A little adventuring, a little grinfing, some crafting, some Exploring.

FFXIV will suit me perfectly

Posted: Aug 27th 2010 8:13AM (Unverified) said

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The issue is that the fatigue, as I understand it, pidgeon holes your progression. It's the fact that you're being told when/what to play.

When I'm paying $12.99 a month, I'll play whatever I want, whenever I want.

Grinding of some sort is necessary in any MMO, it doesn't matter if you enjoy it or not. Gear grind, leveling, reputation etc etc... the list goes on.

Posted: Aug 27th 2010 8:17AM (Unverified) said

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It's not the grind that is the issue with that fatigue system. It's more of the fact that S-E is trying to govern how you play their game. They are saying hey come buy our game, but you can only play it between these hours.

Posted: Aug 27th 2010 8:18AM (Unverified) said

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Bit of a loaded question...but OF COURSE.
The immersive, open worlds, the character customization, engaging with the lore and sense of place and lately, carving your niche into it.
MMOs attract for the the exact same reasons that fantasies of all kinds attract.
I'm sure there are a ton of people for whom the only goal is to level to cap in 4 days and then complain about the lack of endgame content but I really think and *hope* they are in minority (however vocal).
I find it odd that this type of player seems to want the least for her money.
But as I've heard a few developers say, "you get the behavior you incentivize"
and I suppose that's the reason we are where we are...WoW and WoW-like games have incentivized this type of behavior to the point of a complete nested intolerance for anything different.

Posted: Aug 27th 2010 8:25AM (Unverified) said

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It's not really straight up grinding mobs non stop that I want in a new mmo. What I do want is to be able to have a continuous flow of quests and instances bringing me naturally through all the different zones till max level without having to change up my main character archetype.

3 or 4 levels in the same zone made up mostly of solo quests with some group quests interspersed and then maybe an instance with the same atmosphere and theme of the zone you are currently leveling in.

Optional pvp on the side is always good for a quick change of pace as well. If the crafting is extremely well thought out and engaging I could get into that I guess, I still haven't found that in any game yet though.

Posted: Aug 27th 2010 8:33AM twittles said

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An mmo for me at least is about whats over the next hill and character progression is how companies have been relegating how quickly a person can get over the hill. i can't honestly comment on what se is doing with the fatigue system because i havent experienced it myself. however from what has been said so far can be interupted in many ways and most of those interpretations are not going to be good.
i have more thoughts on this, but until i know first hand what its like i will refrain from commenting

Posted: Aug 27th 2010 8:34AM HalfGamer said

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Hmmm, this is interesting. I hadn't really been following this, but I see why people are upset. I'm not a grinder by any stretch of the imagination, but I wouldn't want a game forcing artificial limits on how quickly I can progress.

Yes, there are other things to do in an MMO besides chasing for that next level, but there are days I feel like doing those things and days I feel like questing or killing stuff. If I've run out of my experience-gaining potential and I don't feel like spending my time crafting or whatever, then I'm probably going to play a different MMO that night.

It seems odd to me that any game company would implement a mechanic that would potentially drive players to a different game.

Posted: Aug 27th 2010 8:36AM (Unverified) said

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This is AWESOME!

This game just hit my radar now because of this. I just hope they have the balls to actually go through with it.

Damn fine idea. Having a level playing field really upsets some people it seems though.

I see the "i don't want my choice limited" crowd up above but I counter with this: Your choice is not limited. Play all you want. Play 23 hours a day, the game wont stop you from exploring, killing, doing what ever you want. Whats the big problem? It's certainly not choice or being limited to how much you can play. You play to see the content and enjoy the game right? Not just race to max level as fast as you can ... right? ;)

Posted: Aug 27th 2010 8:56AM nomoredroids said

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I don't understand why people think of this as leveling the playing field. FF isn't a competitive game; as far as I know there is zero PvP. Why do you think all people need to be the same level enjoy the game? I don't get it.
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Posted: Aug 27th 2010 1:22PM Langx2 said

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What a preposterous conclusion, Ironhide. Limiting hardcore play doesn't, in any sense of the word, put casual players on even footing. If you can only grind 20 hours a week for your class/level, then the casual player will still have to grind that 20 hours (which they will never do). No matter how you sugar coat it, no matter what kind of penalties are put in place, a casual player will NEVER be on the same footing as a hardcore player.

The point of this system is fairly obvious: the game isn't finished. It is designed to hide this fact from the rest of the world. It's disastrous for a game when reviews come out after a game's launch that says: there is nothing to do once you hit level x, and if you play y amount of hours a day, you can finish the game in z amount of weeks. FF14 is a beautiful game but the content simply isn't there. To prevent a large portion of people from figuring this out and pointing it out and basically killing a lot of the game's momentum up to the release of the ps3 version, the developer's are making sure that it will be physically impossible for players to reach "the end" until they are ready for them to do so. Anyone who buys ff14 right now is paying for an extended beta with draconian testing rules.
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Posted: Aug 27th 2010 1:33PM (Unverified) said

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The problem, Ironhide, is not that this fatigue system prevents a rush to cap. (At least, it's not a problem for me, though I'm sure it's a problem for some.) The problem is that it restricts hardcore and casual players alike from progressing in whatever manner is available to them. I might have limited time to play this week, but intend to take some vacation next week. During that vacation, I can't make the most of my free time before going back to limited game time. The system is inflexible and doesn't allow for the occasional all-day or all-weekend leveling spree in the midst of an otherwise limited schedule.

Furthermore, it affects non-combat activities as well. If you gather too much, for example, eventually your gathers will all fail under this system. You can't even go out and chop down trees to acquire mats when you run out of your combat xp allotment, never mind the gathering xp and skill points.

The issue here isn't that people are so attached to the grind that they won't stand for game that tries to limit it. Rather, people object to S-E attempting to micromanage their in-game progression without regard to out-of-game schedules. You can't "save up" non-fatigue xp if you don't use it all every week; there is no using it later when you have a larger chunk of time to play. Contrary to your assertion, this system does NOT create a "level playing field," (though the concept is meaningless in a non-competitive game like FFXIV) it will rather create a population that is just as stratified as any other game, with the difference being that people who have *regular* playtime will win out over those who have larger amounts of time, but on an infrequent or irregular basis, to play.

The fatigue system would actually not be as big a deal if FFXIV followed a pay-by-hour business model. If you don't want to play the game at anything less than full xp gain solely on your class of choice, then you just don't use your paid hours when fatigue is in effect. You play less, you also pay less. When players pay a set monthly fee for unlimited access to a game, the expectation is that they will have that unlimited access to do whatever they please, without penalty or limitation. This includes racing to cap for those that prefer that kind of game experience. For the provider of this "unlimited access" to limit how that access can be used for character progression smacks of a dishonest business relationship with their customers. Especially in the North American market, this business model is just not going to fly. S-E would've done much better to implement bonuses for low- or irregular-play-time players instead of penalizing everybody else.
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Posted: Aug 27th 2010 1:47PM (Unverified) said

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So what if there was a game with no XP.. that no matter what you did, as long as you played for more than say 8 hours that week, your character would progress?

I think that would be pretty cool.

The focus on MMO's is far too oriented towards what is my level, how much XP do I get for doing this quest, what is the fastest way for me to get from this level to that level.

Players are seeing not seeing the content, they are seeing the XP. If I was a game dev that would frustrate me. Why should I spend hours developing great content for you to play when you don't care about it.

The games are about the stories, the adventure. I think it would be great to see a game where how many things you kill, how many quests you complete does not matter. It's the fact that you experience the story for 8 hours (or what ever number you want to put in) that matters. Killing 10 rats doesn't matter, if you want to spend your $time killing rats, have at it. I think that would free people from being concerned about whether $action is worth doing .. and focus on whether $action is going to be fun.

Kill 10 rats / Take me here / drop off my laundry type mechanics suck for developers too.

(I've being vague with the time = advancement mechanic, if all you got from it was "well i'd just leave myself logged on while I went to work and level up" then you completely missed the point.)

the next big games are the ones who can transcend the kill 10 rats boundary into wanting me to experience their content and play the game and rewarding me for doing so with character advancement. Not the type of advancement that I will work out the fastest way to get there, because the next big games wont HAVE a fastest way to get there. when you get there, the amount of content you saw and the story you were part of should be what you remember, not how many rats per level you had to kill.
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