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Reader Comments (56)

Posted: Aug 1st 2010 6:53PM davidarmstrong488 said

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Features introduced but left in an incomplete state but still live in the game infuriate me as a player. It is the ultimate in laziness. You ever walk around your house and see all the messes and incomplete projects you have lying about? The clothing on the floor, the dishes in the sink, the overgrown grass in the yard, the hot-rod sitting on blocks in the garage...

It looks bad. It needs to get taken care of or removed. And then there is the reality that players really, really like seeing something new made new again. Like, "No, we're actually going to be following up on this. You'll see, this new feature will become game-defining, you'll see."

Players don't see this anymore. Game designers try to introduce a diet version of a new feature so it can be expanded if it's popular or ignored if it flops. But because it never got the attention the feature deserved, players never really get to love it. And then if it was a legitimate flop, it never gets removed "so the players that do like it can still play with it."

Whatever. I just know that if I ever get around to finishing MY game, it'll be different.

Posted: Aug 1st 2010 7:44PM Dirame said

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Its not laziness, its more wrong focus, wrong time for many of the complainers. You can't say its laziness when they keep pumping out expansion after expansion each bringing something new to the table.

I'd definitely like to see YOUR game, hopefully you'll understand what they are going through and how much they have on their plate.
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Posted: Aug 1st 2010 7:52PM Royalkin said

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I agree that the player's outrage is definitely warranted, but I think my grip is the fact that CCP over-promises and under-delivers almost anything they put in the game. I certainly hope that this is not the case, but is CCP starting on a downward spiral? Are they spreading themselves to thin, by trying to accomplish too many things at once? Eve-Online, Dust 514 (The purported interlinking of Dust and Eve will either be an incredible success, or the biggest bomb in gaming history ), along with World of Darkness?

It's not only the fact that they aren't addressing game breaking elements, but also they can't seem to fully complete features either. We've been promised Incarna (Walking in Stations) for almost 4 years now. Also, the industrialists are quite pissed that the promised Industrial revamp has been put off for more than three years. Once again, more and more promises which never see the light of day. If and when CCP announces a feature, they need to stick to it, until its finished, and add it to the game when it's ready. Stop releasing half-finished features, and then abandoning them. If they cannot release a feature fully completed, then they should either not release it all, or wait until it is finished.

CCP should focus on what is bringing in the cash to fund these other endeavors, otherwise the cash-cow will die. Players are obviously getting quite tired of the run-around tactics of CCP. I look forward to new features in Eve, and even other games that CCP might be developing, because I know what they "can" do, if they do things right. At one time, they were considered the best game development studio, however now that claim is fading fast.

Lastly, and as I understand it, the Council of Stellar Management (CSM) was created to address and attempt to redress player concerns within the game. However, if CPP cannot or will not provide resources to address these concerns, then why do we have the CSM? As Brendan pointed out above, the stonewalling of the CSM is not a new occurrence, and that "...no resources are ever really committed to individual issues during the summit." It's obvious that, at least to CCP the CSM exists for a different purpose other that what the players think that purpose is. Why do players wish to participate? Even if they are not complicit in the situation, they are at best being used as public relations puppets, and that scheme has exploded right in CCP's face.

CCP, you had better address the issues to the player's satisfaction or you are going to face some very dire consequences ahead. Reform your practices, there are plenty of examples of game development studios who did not. Do wish to follow their example?

Posted: Aug 1st 2010 8:07PM EdmundDante said

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I think the crux of the problem lies in the overemphasis CCP has placed in expanding the game to bring in new customers - while assuming the core of players they have now will be satisfied - in general - with the game as is - despite the many problems pointed out by the player represented CSM.

I think it is also a bit disingenuous by CCP to state that lag is their #1 problem and yet it is likely of the hundreds of developers they now have on board - they probably added a few more to the lag issues - while it is more likely the mass preponderance of their developer resources continues to work on Incarna (an iffy expansion at best) and DUST 514 - which will I think benefit the game but is still 1.5 years off.

Starcraft II just came out a few days ago. And it is my guess that Eve Online has taken quite a significant hit because of this yet another flawless release by Blizzard. CCP's disingenuity with the CSM and the player base is not helping matters - nor their snail like response to the community and clearly, continued unwillingness to devote more energy and resources to the current player base and the obvious number of outstanding issues they wish only to commit about 5% of their resources too - while chasing after new players with Incarna and DUST 514.

Sounds fishy at best.




Posted: Aug 2nd 2010 6:57AM (Unverified) said

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Devs allowing a great game to go to crap in the hopes that they can capture a new audience. I've seen this before in a galaxy far far away...

CCP really need to address the key issues that are currently in game now, instead of pushing aside their current loyal consumer base in the hopes of attracting a new one.

Is EVE about to have its very own NGE moment, I hope not.
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Posted: Aug 1st 2010 10:08PM ScottishViking said

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Good article, Brendan.

I wonder to what extent this actually is an issue of "miscommunication." With so much ink and bandwidth spent on calling attention to lag, faction warfare abandonment, etc., I seriously doubt CCP is "not hearing the problems."

I think, in fact, that they are committed to moving the game in directions the community is not comfortable with/interested in, and this means neglecting some of the components the community has cherished. The Quixotic drive to complete the Incarna white elephant is symptomatic of this: they are clearly committed to *something* there, but the community (quite rightly) is suspicious that this "something" is "Second Life in Space."

I think that CCP needs to do a better job of explaining what, exactly, merits all this attention and resources. Why exactly IS Incarna being so lavished with dev attention? What is so special about it? Most players think it will be a Paper Doll exercise with maybe a bit of boost to the trading and negotiations side of things. But will there be more? CCP has done a pretty rotten job of explaining why we should consider this so important.

So I can forgive the neglect of Faction Warfare (for a while), if it means something is going to come along and blow this puppy out of the water. But lag? That is inexcusable. And saying "we're dedicated to fixing the problem" is starting to sound hollow. How long has it been since they started saying this? We're going on 3/4 of a year now. That is a looooooooooooooong time in critical bug fixes. And yes, in a game like EVE, fleet lag is a critical matter.

Posted: Aug 1st 2010 10:34PM Dblade said

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It's simple. They are trying to get more people playing the game. Fixing PvP will not do that, because only a part of EVE's playerbase engages in it regularly. Most avoid it whenever possible: this is why wormholes are so popular because it's 0.0 but much harder to find and bring big zerg fleets into. So they are trying to broaden the PvE experience to give existing people more stuff to do and attract people who might not give EVE a second look.

It's forward looking because pretty soon we are going to see a lot of better games come out that will start to siphon EVE players away. Darkfall is realizing this too, and to an extend Aion is suffering from not. PvP alone simply wont retain players.
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Posted: Aug 1st 2010 10:13PM Aetrix said

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I'm sure the whole deal is being blown way out of proportion by a small group of overly vocal nerd ragers, just like every other internet gaming controversy that has ever been.

That said, Incarna is DUMB and I really wish they'd find something better to work on. Not a single fiber of my being says "I want to walk in a station"... What a waste of time.

Posted: Aug 1st 2010 10:14PM Controlled Chaos said

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Actually, I think maybe one of the main problems here is competition...they don't have any.

Think about this: how many fantasy genre MMOs are out there? A lot. If you try and count them all, I guarantee you'll miss like twenty hiding in the wings, if not more. One of the biggest things, though, is that there is a tonne and a half of competition, so you get developers who are falling over each other to try and court the customer base into their game. Free to play, cheaper subscription rates, unlimited free trials, more goodies in stores for cost and sometimes free...it's a friggin' smorgasbord of things these guys are trying to throw at you to make you you stay happy as a lark. If you leave, they lose money and they're hooped.

In the Science Fiction/Space style MMO, who, exactly, is running around? Star Trek Online? Totally different style of thing. Star Wars Galaxies? Yeah, no.

I mean, if they had another MMO in the same market, trying to be competitive, do you think they'd still be this lax about their development policies? Maybe when Jumpgate: Evolution, Black Prophecy and perhaps even The Old Republic come out, you'll see a little more jump in their step as they try to make sure nobody leaves their flock.

Posted: Aug 2nd 2010 4:40AM kasapina said

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I'm not sure that the lack of competition is making CCP lazy, because since EvE is a very niche game, they can only access a small amount of the MMO playerbase. It's not like anyone interested in a space MMO can stick with it, and from those that do stay, most prefer it because of the sandbox environment (and thus EvE should be competing with sandbox MMOs, not space ones, even though sandbox MMOs are just as rare).

That said, I really want a good space or mecha mmo. PLEASE!
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Posted: Aug 2nd 2010 12:06AM Streamweaver said

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CCP devs have been looking for a way to expand Eve beyond the gankfest the game is for years. So far it really hasn't been successful and I think they've probably painted themselves into a corner.

Truth is there isn't much of a future in an aging player base and they can't continue to depend on the same old players buying mulitple accounts forever.

Posted: Aug 1st 2010 10:44PM Jade Effect said

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If those Eve players feel so strongly about the direction CCP is taking, why don't they vote with their feet and wallet?

It seems they are making a lot of noise, but stay subscribed anyway. How can anyone take them seriously? Every MMO gets lots of players whining, crying and proclaiming how the game is failing. But who cares as long as the players pay up every month.

Posted: Aug 1st 2010 11:34PM anduz said

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Unfortunately eve-online is about the only sandbox MMO which doesn't suck so there aren't really a lot of alternatives. Which works in CCP's favor, but this is basically the player base telling them they're not loving the game unconditionally.

Some people have already started leaving though, and I think you can expect more to follow in the next 18 months unless CCP relocates some resources and have more teams work on actual gameplay instead of that silly 3D chat client they've been telling us about for 5 years.
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Posted: Aug 1st 2010 10:49PM ScottishViking said

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I think you're right, and that explains to a certain extent Tyrannis and Incarna (and a lot of Apocrypha) as opposed to the half-hearted PvP elements. But what about the bugs? The lag? I would think that they would be keen to address those issues, because they're working with existing platforms. "Not expanding PvP" is not the same as "Letting Existing Problems Stagnate."

Posted: Aug 1st 2010 10:50PM ScottishViking said

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Reply fail. Was directed at Dblade. /facepalm
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Posted: Aug 1st 2010 11:22PM Dblade said

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It might be because it's hard to fix. They've been doing a lot of testing on Singularity though, and I don't think they ever said they wouldn't devote resources to it. Bugs are a problem though, the in-game jukebox has been busted for me since dominion. I don't know which bugs specifically are meant though, I thought a lot of the rage was over choosing incarna rather than fixing things like fw and lowsec.
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Posted: Aug 1st 2010 11:55PM ScottishViking said

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Well, there *is* a lot of rage over the Incarna vs. Existing Expansions issue. But the primary source of anger comes from the resource allocation. Have you actually read the devblog about the number of people devoted to each team? Incarna has a huge number of folks attached, far and away above any other project. So it kind of strikes the wrong note, PR-wise, when they say "Lag is a top priority," and then you look at the numbers, and they say *exactly the opposite* of that statement. It kind of rings hollow, and is certainly in keeping with their "Expansion is Better than Fixing" philosophy.

I'm sympathetic. I actually like Tyrannis -- I'm a PvE guy at heart -- and am looking forward to Incarna. But I think the reaction is pretty justified. I would be damned pissed if the game *I* played for so long -- I've only been playing since November of 2009 -- was rotting away not because nobody was playing, but because the devs just don't seem to care. Now, *my* game isn't dying, but 3/4 of my friends in EVE are really, really pissed about it.
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Posted: Aug 2nd 2010 2:54PM (Unverified) said

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ScottishViking, "...when they say 'Lag is a top priority,' and then you look at the numbers, and they say *exactly the opposite* of that statement..."

Throwing more people at the lag problem isn't going to get it fixed faster, in fact, it will slow it down. I work in IT so I knew that already, but even CCP has made that comment more than once in the last week or so. So saying, they have X-more people working on Incarna than Lag does not equate to how "important" the issue is.

I too am frustrated that the lag monster is still around and I too would like to know what Incarna is going to bring to EVE. So far there has been little official information from CCP and nothing really substantial for more than a year.

This leaves some players to make assumptions, many of which are probably wrong, but without anything from CCP it snowballs.

As the article stated, COMMUNICATION is the problem:

- CCP needs to do "lag monster updates" more often on the state of the issue. Sure these maybe hugely technical, but some people will understand it and translate for us laymen.

-CCP should have defined what "stakeholder" status means for the CSM. This could have been fixed long ago before the summit, yet CCP never corrected the assumptions on the forums nor apparently defined it to the CSM either.

-CCP needs to give us more information, and more often, on in Incara. How can we players get excited about a feature we know next-to-nothing about. With so many devs on it, you can't tell me they don't have more info than what we got at fanfest 08. Again, lack of information, leaves the players to make assumptions which feed other assumptions and snowball into a bigger PR issue.

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Posted: Aug 1st 2010 11:10PM (Unverified) said

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(sorry for the wall of text)
I'm still a relatively new player to EVE, only been playing about half a year. That said, I was looking forward to Inarnica in the beginning, but now... not so much. It just feels like CCP introduce half-finished pieces, and then just give up on them. From what I've read about this walking-on-stations feature, it sounds incredibly half-assed.

Think about it, we're getting all hyped up about this feature where we can leave our ships, but then think realistically about what CCP is going to deliver: a 2 dimensional (as in movement plane) restrictive useless add-on. Sure, if we could have things like combat, arenas, skills and other things too, it would make it fun, but it sounds like freaking habbo hotel. I'd rather just stay in my cockpit to be honest. It sounds so incredibly tacked on, and it has absolutely no purpose at all. It sounds almost as if they're only doing it so they can say "naa naa we're the first MMO to allow you to leave your ship!! (Uhh just ignore star trek online...)"

I remember how hyped up the planetary interaction feature was. From the sounds of it, I remember people saying that the rumour was you could fly down to the planets surface and things like that. Albeit, only rumours, but they sounded awesome. What did we get? *left click* jettison to space? sure why not.
It's exactly as boring as mining -.-

Posted: Aug 2nd 2010 12:45AM (Unverified) said

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Meikura said on 11:10PM 8-01-2010
It sounds almost as if they're only doing it so they can say "naa naa we're the first MMO to allow you to leave your ship!! (Uhh just ignore star trek online...)"

I guess you'd have to ignore SWG even before STO also.
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