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Reader Comments (49)

Posted: Jul 29th 2010 10:07PM (Unverified) said

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If its nice and slow with lots of content its gonna be worth earning every level.

Posted: Jul 30th 2010 11:44AM BigAndShiny said

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the feeling that it takes the same time to get from 1 to 2 as 78 to 80 is really good. all mmos should have this
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Posted: Jul 29th 2010 10:09PM Cicadymn said

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I've never been into guild wars.

But now I'm curious.

Leveling is used by too many companies as a grind and timesink. The only purpose of leveling should be how to teach you how to play your class. That's it.

Posted: Jul 29th 2010 10:19PM (Unverified) said

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There's so much more to playing an mmo than reaching the cap and grinding ad nauseum for the uberlootz.

Grinding for Gear and Grinding for levels is the same thing, its just a timesink to ensure your monthly sub.

And Just as varying the content at the cap keeps things interesting for those stuck there, there's no reason you can't enjoy the leveling process. There's no reason its got to suck, unless you decide you want it to.

Jeezus, Stop and Smell the roses once in a while. Its about the journey, not the destination.
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Posted: Jul 30th 2010 3:51AM alinos said

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its what made GW such an awesome game

once you hit the cap their was no every 6 months we'll make everything you had pointless kind of thing

the fact that once you hit the cap you could go in search of different elite skills to cap or try to find runes or buy an armour that you like the look of as opposed to grinding each week to make sure you gear is competitive

you can PvP without having to play for 100 hours to get 3 pieces of gear

sure the extra time into unlocking the other elite skills and runes can help but with a good team you can roll a bunch of long term pvpers based of skill not play time
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Posted: Jul 30th 2010 9:41AM Ocho said

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The Guild Wars series gains nothing in making the game a timesink, considering that (as far as we've heard so far) they're sticking to the same purchase structure of GW1, buy the box and no sub fees. With no sub fees, why make someone endlessly grind? Making it take longer doesn't get you anywhere and is not an advantage for them, either.
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Posted: Jul 29th 2010 10:17PM Arkanaloth said

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odd cap choice... level is ultimately meaningless in GW1, all level 20 means is a) you played the game and b) you can wear elite armor. A fresh level 20 vs a 20 that's been around a while with solid builds to rely on will get mowed down nearly (afterall they could get lucky) every time.

I'll have to check out the blog and see the reason behind a very "typical mmo" change of cap.

Posted: Jul 30th 2010 11:08AM nomoredroids said

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How is this typical? Did you read the article?
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Posted: Jul 30th 2010 11:17AM Arkanaloth said

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the number of 80 is indeed typical of most current mmos especially in contrast to GW's cap of 20 which can easily be hit with absolutely zero grind... and while he described *what* they want to do.. which is an extension of the GW play relative to the new much higher cap, he did not describe *how* exactly they were going to do it, stating simply that each level would take roughly the same amount of time as opposed to the experience curve currently seen.

all fine and good but details would be nice, and real details, not just "there's no grind" LOTS of games say that, few deliver... Since I play GW heavily I know what they did there, but with each blog and update it becomes more clear that GW2 is not merely an extension of GW1 and has indeed taken several aspects of current typical MMO's and put a spin on them.. for better or worse has yet to be seen. So now they've taken the quite typical level 80 cap... I'm just waiting to see exactly how they put the spin on it.
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Posted: Jul 31st 2010 1:43PM Muddleglum said

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How is 80 typical? Because that is WoW's cap at this moment in time? For launch 80 is most certianly not typical.
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Posted: Jul 31st 2010 2:24PM Arkanaloth said

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"How is 80 typical? Because that is WoW's cap at this moment in time? For launch 80 is most certianly not typical."

Just because they made it 80 at launch instead of 2 years down the road doesn't make the cap any less typical of current MMO trends.
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Posted: Jul 31st 2010 3:14PM Muddleglum said

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Ummm yes.. yes it does.
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Posted: Jul 29th 2010 10:31PM Cicadymn said

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If grinding is grinding then it shouldn't matter right Weez?

Then why not put the grind in once everyone has had the time to play and know their class? Nothing I said had anything to do with gear grinding, there's more to MMO's than gear, you must be a WoW player to immediately assume that's what I meant.

Rather than wasting time developing pointless areas that you outgrow in a few hours, why not spend more time making the end game better. MMO's need to move away from spending ages developing near pointless areas to waste more player time, and spend more time developing cool interactive epic adventures to be had at the max level.

If you want to grind as you level then you're in the market for a Korean MMO. I'm hoping western developers can step up and provide a better end game experience. One that can give the same epic feel as a single player game but in an MMO setting.

We seem to be a ways off from that though.

Posted: Jul 29th 2010 10:54PM MtthwRddl said

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"Rather than wasting time developing pointless areas that you outgrow in a few hours, why not spend more time making the end game better. MMO's need to move away from spending ages developing near pointless areas to waste more player time, and spend more time developing cool interactive epic adventures to be had at the max level. "

I strongly disagree. We keep hearing people say, "enjoy the journey not the destination" and yet you want to wreck the journey so that the destination is nicer? Doesn't make sense to me.

It's not like the majority of players even make it to the final destination in many MMOs. Sure, a lot of players do, but the majority of players are still journeying to the finish. Some won't ever make it and will have to enjoy how far they've come. These players are those you turn away when you decide to take concentration away from the lower levels and put it into the max level.

How many MMO expansion packs do we see that barely cater to the lower levels and really just add on max level areas and items? These expansions packs are non-essential to the new player as it rarely offers them anything (maybe a new race).

And it doesn't bring in as much money as an expansion that caters to all tiers of levels. Look at Guild Wars for a good example. Their expansion packs added new worlds that any level could explore. If a new player was getting into Guild Wars, I'd highly recommend the first two expansions to buy at the same time. The game and first 2 expansions give a new player 3 different worlds to play in and a bunch of different classes to try out. Eye of the North can be purchased later because it's not as essential and doesn't add as much to the game for the lower levels.

I cannot say that I will make it to level 80 in Guild Wars 2, but I don't want my lower levels less fun just so that those who are at level 80 can have more to do. They already have the entire world to play with, and that should be enough. And I guarantee you that if the lower levels aren't as fun to play, people won't even get to the top level. That has happened a lot to many games, like Aion for example.

So to conclude, I disagree strongly. Don't forget the lower levels. Even if your main character is level 80 already, you probably will roll an alt sometime. New players are joining all the time, and some players take their time with leveling. A game cannot afford to lose sight of this demographic.
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Posted: Jul 30th 2010 3:12AM (Unverified) said

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Prime, instead of wrecking the journey, one could, you know, make it a short walk to the fridge. This way, the destination (the fridge) is but the beginning of the real journey to all sorts of delicious foods (whatever your preference may be). Leveling shouldn't be the journey that you enjoy, what comes after it, the so-called destination, the level cap, should be but the beginning of the real game, of the journey.

Which is better, walking to the fridge, or pulling a strawberry out and taking the first bite out of it? (Ignore eating the rest of the strawberry though, it gets tart, and is kind of meh, but that doesn't correlate to my example..Well, hopefully. Hopefully each bite will be as sweet and succulent as the first.)
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Posted: Jul 30th 2010 3:32AM MtthwRddl said

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Gmr Leon:

"Prime, instead of wrecking the journey, one could, you know, make it a short walk to the fridge. ... Leveling shouldn't be the journey that you enjoy, what comes after it, the so-called destination, the level cap, should be but the beginning of the real game, of the journey. "

So, you recommend making the journey very short. You'd rather have the final destination be the sweet part, the part to look forward to.

What do you deem 'final'? Because even when you hit the max level, you're still grinding away to get those better armor pieces and more rare weapons. And if the developers know what their doing, when the next expansion comes out, you'll have a few more levels to 'journey' through and a whole new set of armor pieces and weapons to work to get.

Does your definition of final mean the maximum capability of a character? You'd rather the journey to that point be short, and build up to this sweet part.

Why even level then? Just start each character off at max strength with access to every armor piece, weapon, and skill. There you go. No journey whatsoever, and plenty of time to enjoy the sweet part.

Is that really the type of game you're looking to play?

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Posted: Jul 30th 2010 4:00AM alinos said

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i agree with prime the journey is way more exciting than the end game because end game in most mmo's either means repetitive repetition of the raid with the gear you need until the next patch nerfs it

if anything the journey needs to be better

the original GW had that it had a clear story that tied it all together that you could enjoy as you went

WoW however was all about getting to the endgame so in that case the journey stunk and that why you might want to get to the end game faster

if you cant sit back and enjoy the ride to the lvl cap than theres sumthing inherently wrong with the games design

im playing through lotro now and the story is superbly well done so far, the use of instancing to tell the story is the way i hope GW2 goes about it(i still think the instanced worlds of guild wars are better than the massive open worlds with random mobs strewn every where)

i mean using an instance to show a castle raid works way better than a random castle with spawns. because A) if someone else is around the castles already empty B) you can make mobs more tactical against the 8 man team design GW had where a random castle is normally gonna be made for 1-2 players tops

imo instanced story and other factors is more immersive than a straight open world
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Posted: Jul 30th 2010 11:07PM (Unverified) said

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Prime, correct me if I'm mistaken here, please. Your perception of after the max level, all there is to do is to grind for gear (better armour and more rare weapons as you put it), which may be the case in many other online games, but was never the case with the original Guild Wars suggests to me that you didn't play it. This was what many of the fans enjoyed the most about it, they got to the cap, and all the armour held the same stats, and it was the same with weapons. This meant they could spend less to no time grinding, and more time enjoying playing the game how they wanted because they had what they needed. Their preferred weapon and set of armour. They didn't need to get better armour after they hit the level cap, or get a better weapon, they had what they needed to play well.

Even the rarity of the weapon did not really matter, as many of them held the same stats as a dropped weapon, just with a different skin. Technically, you could even recreate many of the rare weapons if you had the right mods.

In the campaigns that came after the first game, they didn't increase the level, and they didn't make better armour sets, although they did add some additional rare weapons. However, as I said, both armour and weapons had the same stats, meaning all of them had a capped armour level (based on profession in GW) and damage (depending on weapon) so nothing was different except for looks. So it was just a matter of what you preferred, there was no requirement or incentive to get them. If the designers are smart, they'll stick to a similar system with GW2, since it was so popular in the original, making each expansion introduce new weapons and armour that are not better statistically and are only gotten for looks, and level will not be increased as it's not level that matters, but the content.

I'm rambling though; yes, I would like the journey to be short, because I don't think leveling should be the journey. Typically, in GW1 after Prophecies, the journey was experienced at the level cap, meaning the destination (if it was a level cap in your mind) was really just the beginning of the rest of the game, and in the subsequent campaigns after Prophecies, they shortened the beloved journey of leveling so that you could quickly get to the cap and enjoy yourself without worrying about grinding, getting better armour or weapons.

Regarding your very last paragraph and point, yes, certainly, why not? I should be playing the game, not leveling to get to the bulk of the content. Besides, they've said in structured PvP (note, not W vs. W) they're pretty much going to do that. You don't play a FPS online to level up to get stuff, you hop into the action. Why should MMORPG's PvP be different? Personally, I don't see why PvE should be different (in terms of strength, anyway), the only thing you should be setting a goal to get in PvE should be skills and traits. Weapons and armour shouldn't really matter.

Alinos:
"i agree with prime the journey is way more exciting than the end game because end game in most mmo's either means repetitive repetition of the raid with the gear you need until the next patch nerfs it"

You're thinking of most MMOs though, GW was not, and GW2 hopefully will not be, a conventional MMO. You appear to have played GW, so you should be familiar with the fact that, if you consider end game content being what comes after hitting the level cap, the bulk of GW's content was end game. All story missions and the quests in Factions and Nightfall that you played with a character from Prophecies that was at level 20, were, in that sense end game content, and the same can be said of pretty much everything in Eye of the North. All of that was end game content, which people played and enjoyed, without ever thinking of it as end game because it did not hold better armour or extremely powerful/rare weapons. Despite this, in the sense that the end game is what is experienced after the level cap, it all was.
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Posted: Aug 1st 2010 1:02PM alucard3000 said

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And this is why I hope Funcom succeeds with "The Secret World" no LEVELS at all just play the game period.
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