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Reader Comments (45)

Posted: Jul 27th 2010 2:42AM Dirame said

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@ Wjowski

You're limited to 3 heroes per player, so a person can only put 3 heroes in their team if there is space and then fill the rest up with either henchies, other players or another player with his own set of heroes.
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Posted: Jul 28th 2010 2:14AM cray said

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Anymore than one is too many.
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Posted: Jul 26th 2010 7:35PM paraLogiki said

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I'm with the pro-Heroes group. It's pretty simple to me:

Heroes offered choice.

Don't like heroes, or heroes make the game too easy? Don't use them, it's your choice. Sit in town for hours and LFG, find others who don't like heroes either.

Choice is important, but does always lead to risk vs reward problems. The 8 real people think that their risk is greater than the 1 or 2 people so they should get a better reward. This is the age old debate of Hard Core vs Casual.

I like choice and I like games that offer it. For my City of Heroes offers choice too by the way the scale things to group size.

I can't do PUG's anymore, my time is way to valuable and the risk (suck members, failure, etc) is rarely worth the reward.

Posted: Jul 26th 2010 7:42PM (Unverified) said

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I thought Heroes were a great addition, because quite often I'd have a few others I wanted to do a mission with, and we used the Heroes to round out the group. No fuss, muss, or waiting.

I got by decently soloing with hench when needed, and they worked fine. Just having the ability to flag the AI to a spot, was a major boon for working with hench.

There was a definite feedback loop in GW. ANet introduced a lot of content via title chasing, many of which would have been unbelievably tedious to entirely PUG. Truthfully, how many grandmaster cartographers PUGed it? To a lesser extent, even vanquising and skill hunter would be very time consuming to form groups for. So a lot of content naturally favors the time optimizations from hero/hench.

Posted: Jul 26th 2010 7:43PM Nmaster64 said

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Heroes + Map Travel = Finally a MMO I love.

Posted: Jul 26th 2010 8:25PM (Unverified) said

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If people want the MM out of MMORPG, who's to stop them?

Certainly not Guild Wars. Obviously there's arguments for practicality, but I prefer the argument that the point of MMORPGs is that you're playing a game with people. I think Blizzard's way of cross-server grouping and PvPing is the better alternative to having NPCs follow you around. Or, in EVE, it's one massive server, so someone is -always- online.

In the end, players that value experiencing the game with other players the most will go for that, and players that value convenience or whatever their reasoning, will go for that if the option is available. Whatever's the more rewarding experience I guess.

Posted: Jul 27th 2010 2:17AM alinos said

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yeah but its not just that

when i get off work at 2am and just wanna play for an hour before bed

i dont wanna have to sit for 30 mins for 7 other randoms to get ready

the thing is you cant compare wow either because in wow you can complete quests by yourself

in GW you need to be part of the team so that team invariably needs heros/henchies to complete it

in an MMO aside from end game content(and Major plot missions(instances), a player should be able to solo his/her way all the way to max lvl without having to stand in a field grinding all day

id prefer to group but i want the option not to have to without hitting a wall where i need another group to progress past an area
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Posted: Jul 26th 2010 8:46PM Jade Effect said

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In my opinion, heroes are the best thing that ever happened to Guild Wars. Even before Nightfall campaign, I got tired of pugs quickly. Playing with henchmen allow me to enjoy the game content on my own terms. Indeed, some of my worst playing experience involves trying to clear elite content that allow only human players, such as the Underworld or Fissure of Woe.

"Why play an MMO if you're going to treat it like a single-player game? " This is a familar argument by advocates of grouping, and it is a faulty one. What if there are a bunch of players who simply prefer to play alone? They may simply enjoy chatting with others, or enjoy the feeling of being in a persistent world, or whatever reason. Should the MMO company ignore these players? One company didn't, saw potential in selling a game to these players, and turned the MMO world around on its head at a time when everyone else is busy copying off the Everquest forced grouping style. The company is Blizzard and it made World of Warcraft.

Posted: Jul 26th 2010 8:46PM (Unverified) said

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I don't quite get people who don't like things like this because they make the game more single-player. Some people like that kind of thing, why should their preference be invalid?

I would rather play an MMO than a single-player RPG over the long haul, but not because I like to play with other people. Rather, because single-player RPGs are all about advancing through a storyline, and when you get to the end, that's it, there's nothing more to do. A single-player RPG isn't going to keep me interested once I've finished an initial playthrough.

MMOs generally have a story advancement while leveling up, true, but when you reach the end, they give you more things to do! There are always more dungeons, more bits of content, world events for certain holidays, and new features being added to the game over time. Some single-player RPGs do things like that through downloadable content, but most of them do not.

I don't have a lot of friends in real life, and I prefer it that way. I love exploring dungeons with my fiance, and occasionally one or two other friends. We will PuG our groups if we have to, because being in a guild implies more commitment to random internet strangers than we would like. Having the ability to use some kind of NPC groupmates just makes the game more fun for us, since we can play together without having to deal with idiots all the time.

Posted: Jul 27th 2010 12:09AM wjowski said

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Anything that keeps me from having to deal with douchebag tanks or prima donna healers (these are always the worst-behaved classes in any given PUG) is a godsend to me, whatever the game.

Posted: Jul 27th 2010 1:57AM Its Utakata stupid said

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I think this is like asking if Dungeon Finder ruined WoW, frankly. If peeps are still playing the game, no it hasn't. It has instead given them more choice of how they want to play their game, IMO.

The hero/henchman mechanic is a great tool for many of us who want to explore and immerce ourselves by ourselves, without having to rely on PuG'ing our way threw the enitire game that is not very single person solo friendly. But at the same time allows us group with friends or even PuG if we want.

It should be remembered that gamers have a strange understanding of what multiplayer is. It's a vitual game environment where you can choose to be with other players or by yourself. Not a game where it requires forced grouping with others to participate. I'm not sure where they're getting that misconception from.

Posted: Jul 27th 2010 2:10AM alinos said

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the thing that ruined guild wars imo was the early annoncement of GW2

alot of the people i knew moved on once they had done eotn enough times

before that there was no issue with playing content to death because there was vent and the promise that another expac or content was coming

the fact that they then said that only titles will carry over but not which ones also doesnt help

like sure if there was the knowledge of an awesome reward for clearing every zone on hard mode im pretty sure at least 6 of us wouldve kept at it but given the timesink that would be with no garuntee of an actual reward past GW not something we can do with a bunch of heros or henchies

i mean its 3 years since eotn dropped next month and there could be another year before GW2 drops

Posted: Jul 27th 2010 2:22AM (Unverified) said

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Another pro-heroes person here. I mostly play with Heroes/Henchmen, but also will team up with 1 or 2 friends when time allows. Now and then we might even get a full group of people together, either to help someone or just to go out and have fun. Now and then I'll even PUG if someone is having a problem with a mission or quest, but I usually avoid that if I think there is any chance of them being jerks.

A couple of times I've even PUGed missions with what were clearly young kids, based on their chat, scribbles on the compass, name calling and such. I'd have to herd them through (why do they want to run off in different directions so much?), but they actually played their character BETTER than many adults. I teamed up with a young brother (monk) and sister (ele), and aside from the name calling between them, they were excellent players once the battle started. We breezed through the mission.

GW2 should be interesting without heroes. I just hope it doesn't end up like Aion, sitting around for an hour trying to get a healer and/or tank.

Posted: Jul 27th 2010 3:06AM (Unverified) said

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This is the thing with Guild Wars: Everyone wants to do their own thing in PUGs, myself included. For the longest time, I imagined going into a group and telling them exactly what they should run so we could perform an amazing, coordinated super build with me, its architect, as the main star of the show.

As people got wiser to the game, the dream of having people merging together with their creative efforts slowly diminished into a realm where the numbers were proven. Previous to heroes, you couldn't do content if you were experimenting. I remember fantasizing about skill combos, but they were fantasies in that I could not expect anybody but my closest friends to run synergizing builds. Heroes have changed that and the game of working skills has expanded from a single bar to multiples, broadening the depth of the creative process.

Unfortunately, you can hardly ask people to ping their builds without evoking some sort of defensive response, especially nowadays. Heroes allow you to orchestrate amazing synergy without having to deal with the frustrating human element. Discord was always really good as a skill, it just happens that very few people in the public realm wanted to coordinate to such a level.

The 3 hero per person limit still keeps you social. Heroes don't necessarily cover up how mediocre henchies are and if I had a choice, I would love to take another player with his hero set. Moreover, you can't do all the content of GW with heroes. DoA still has a huge concentration of 100% human parties. You just have to be proactive in looking in the right places for the massively multiplayer aspect.

That being said, heroes nearly ruined HA until they took them out. I cannot tell you how many times I've encountered Teaseway and wanted to go scream on a forum afterwards.

Posted: Jul 27th 2010 4:23AM ZenJitsu said

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I love my heroes, and I'm rather sad that they're being morphed/nixed in GW2.

Pre-Heroes, I spent ridiculous amounts of time just trying to fill a party with other human players. In addition, you almost always have at least one Jerk among them. Maybe one or two disconnectors/bad connections. I've played with some of those people who say that Heroes ruined the game...they're the same ones that in the same session will tell you that your build is suboptimal, you're gimped, a n00b, or don't know what the hell you're doing. I've seen it happen as well as had it happen to me. Let's face it, sometimes Hell is other people.

Without Heroes, my weird Monk/Mesmer combo might never have been so fun to play. I enjoy sharing my successes, but Heroes allowed me to fail in private. I loved outfitting them, playing with various skills to synergize with mine. They were extensions of my characters yet also had their own skillsets and distinct personalities.

I will be missing them, hopefully they will be replaced with something greater.

Posted: Jul 27th 2010 4:40AM Gemi said

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Me and my girlfriend would always play the game together, so Heroes were an awesome upgrade from Henchmen for us. I'm really glad for the system and would love to see similar duo-possibilities in other MMO's as well. This allows us to play as we want, with the schedule that we want, and try out new and interesting things whenever we want to.

Posted: Jul 27th 2010 4:42AM Jeromai said

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Did anyone notice the tags on this post? I lol'ed.

Pro-hero here. I love any game that recognises the soloist as a valid playstyle. Not everyone needs to play with people all the time, some alone time can also be a fun strategic challenge. As mentioned by others, it's about increasing choices of gameplay.

A long time ago, before there were such things as modems, every game was a singleplayer challenge - you against the computer AI. Then when multiplayer arrived on the scene, it expanded the options - wow, now you can play with other people against computer AI, or against other real people!

Yet now in MMOs, thanks to a history of forced grouping, group-preferring playstyles whine and attempt to limit the options again with some badly thought out logic that they'd have more people to group with... except that people who didn't want to play with you in the first place... are probably not the folks you want to trust with your virtual life.

Posted: Jul 27th 2010 6:25AM Suplyndmnd said

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Heroes became a necessity because of the fact the game is less about the missions and leveling up then it is about the end game so once people got there with the new classes few would go back. When you had only Prophecies you had people in a very contained area. There were only about 16 missions you could do and everyone had to do them. Finding a group was much easier but now that you got people spread out so far and with games getting older (Prophecies and Factions) you get less people interested in doing the missions.

I've beaten Factions until i'm blue in the face so i'm not going to do it again. That sucks for a new player who wants to beat Factions and has no one to help. Also, I only use Heroes to fill in gaps. I prefer to play with other people most times and instead of standing around for an hour looking for a monk we pop 1 or 2 heroes in and we're golden.

Posted: Jul 29th 2010 10:18AM jaycrockett said

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Heroes are perfect for two player co-op. Like others I played Guildwars through with my wife and heroes gave us a 8 member party.

Posted: Jul 27th 2010 3:55PM (Unverified) said

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although i don't object to having more choices, i have to admit that my interest in GW dwindled after getting Nightfall and got *too* comfortable using heroes and henchies to effectively, play a singleplayer game. Since using heroes are just too effective sometimes, it reduced chance of finding a good PUG, which is probably why I took a year-long break before finishing Nightfall's campaign.

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