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Reader Comments (24)

Posted: Jul 24th 2010 4:19PM Crsh said

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Two years into it, I'm still stuck with the same question I had when the CSM was announced: how can this possibly work?

I like the idea of developers being more transparent and taking the dev-player bond to another level and working together to make the game evolve, but there's bound to be conflicts on priorities and players feeling deceived if the devs don't devote resources to their requests.

I understand a company typically cannot cave in to all demands and feedback, they have objectives of their own and that's fine, but it makes me wonder what the CSM is for in the first place.

Is it just PR?

Posted: Jul 24th 2010 6:38PM (Unverified) said

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Trebor hastened to repeat the often-forgotten fact that 20% of all developer time is spent on bug-fixing. "CCP has stated that their developers work on an 80/20 rule of 80% work on features and 20% bug-fixing," he reminded me. However, he clarified that "the 20% allocated to fixing older bugs will apparently not be used to address items in the CSM backlog," stating that "CCP does not consider them bugs; they are 'design defects'."

Hmm. wouldn't "design defects" be.......bugs? LOL

The CSM is just a puppet show, the same as the Galactic Senate was and is for SWG. A way to appease the populace with a false sense of including them into the process.

Remember, promising to listen to the CSM does not mean promising to actually do anything other than listen.

Posted: Jul 24th 2010 7:49PM Darkdust said

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No, design defects are situations in which balance issues and other game decisions come under review. Bugs are situations in which the actual implementation does not match the intended design.
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Posted: Jul 24th 2010 8:01PM GusSin said

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I am rather fond of the CSM process. Yes, nothing real came out of it but those guys have been very effective in communicating what existing players want. The problem is, CCP doesn't seem to care much about what current players want. I mean come on there are really very few people out there who are excited about Incarna or Dust but in contrast CCP is totally obsessed with them. Is it because of the masses of new players and revenue they think these will bring?

BTW does anyone else think Dust154 is more like a separate game than an EVE expansion? Shouldn't it have a separate production group rather than taking resources off EVE?
I really wish CCP just went and struck a deal with the 'Global Agenda' people so EVE players could go in and hire mercs and fight it out or do whatever we're suppose to do with Dust in GA.

Posted: Jul 24th 2010 9:28PM Brendan Drain said

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Dust 514 is a separate game. It's Incarna that's the expansion.
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Posted: Jul 24th 2010 8:08PM Laephis said

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The creation of the CSM was a thinly-veiled attempt to reduce some of the fallout from the T20 scandal. (Devs playing favorites with the alliances they play in.) Anyone who thought this program would have a tangible effect in the game is very, very naive.

Posted: Jul 24th 2010 9:49PM Darkdust said

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The connection to the T20 scandal wasn't "thinly-veiled". It was explicitly part of the response to it, as an attempt to increase transparency.

Players may not like the answers they get through the CSM, but clearly the transparency (if not the accountability) has improved.
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Posted: Jul 24th 2010 8:16PM Dblade said

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The problem is EVE's community is driven by a minority and they constantly view EVE as little more than lowsec and 0.0 PvP.The most vocal of them get elected to the CSM, usually because it's only the larger alliances and corps dedicated to PvP that only organize turnout. That and the forum community combine to constantly try and push the game one way.

That's why there is so much focus on the "real EVE" and why PvE expansions aren't considered it. The problem though is that while they want the PvP aspects fixed, I don't think those things will draw and retain people, which is why CCP is focusing so much on PI and Incarna.

The CSM though is always going to push PvP fixes. Ankh tried to push differently, but a UI revamp is about as unrealistic as a magic fix to suddenly make lowsec worthwhile. The vocal community will always focus on the same PvP fixes, so they are going to clash with CCP over it.

So you have on the one hand the CSM and community wanting resources spent on internet spaceships, something which is going to be very hard to fix beyond simple balance issues. They simply can't increase and fix PvP any more than it is without busting empire, and a lot of those people want empire busted.

On the other hand, CCP wants to get more people in and staying in, and my gut feeling is they are realizing PvP and 0.0 simply will not do it. It's similar to Darkfall, which is suddenly discovering the benefits of PvE content.

In any other game, an expansion based on PvE wouldn't be considered as taking away from the real game. It would be seen as widening the audience, who might very well discover PvP. But EVE's community is toxic, and I don't envy CCP in dealing with them.

Posted: Jul 24th 2010 9:52PM Darkdust said

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Really? No PVE additions... like Apocrypha and Tyrannis (Planetville) and the "invasions" coming in the Winter 2011 expansion?

Also, the fact that 0.0 folks are more vocal doesn't mean that's what the CSM focuses on to the exclusion of all else. Read their minutes and issues and you'll see that they take a broad view, because they understand that all aspects of EVE need to work for the game to flourish. Ankh had other problems beyond just preferring to engage in PVE.

Finally, if you think lowsec has gotten more attention than PVE, I'd like to know what game you're playing.
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Posted: Jul 24th 2010 10:32PM Dblade said

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Lowsec gets a lot more attention on the forums, and generally it's positive. PvE usually gets "HTFU" and "Why aren't you liking being ninja salvaged or suicide ganked?" attention. A lot of PvE proposals are negative: stuff like cordoning off all empire systems with lowsec systems between them to kill haulers, or moving level 4s into lowsec. Most of the PvE changes before were liked because they also were PvP ones, like exploration and wormholes: they were designed to funnel people to PvP encounters.

The CSM..honestly I don't think they take a broad view at all. A broad view would involve being realistic and being an informed stakeholder by learning more about the capacity for CCP to deliver on things, and not just wasting time on the "excellence" threadnaught or whole UI revamp among other things. I don't think virtually any of the EVE forumgoers, let alone the CSM, care all that much about the game.
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Posted: Jul 25th 2010 5:50AM anduz said

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Wormholes were frankly the pve expansion anyone could've dreamed about, yes it isn't empire space but as with 0.0 if you simply join forces with other players they're pretty safe.

I can understand why you want to avoid pveing in low-sec as it's pretty much suicide, but I frankly don't think anyone has the right to complain about the lack of pve.

Sure you're limited to what you can do if you want to solo and stay safe, but that's because all the "endgame" content in eve-online requires teamwork. You can't really mine or pvp without joining forces with other people, so why would you be able to do pve on your own?

The funny thing is though, even if you're only really into pve you'll still be laughing at yourself for ever living in empire once you step out into friendly 0.0 or wspace and realize you'll almost never be outnumbered by enemies unless you roam their space.
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Posted: Jul 24th 2010 8:30PM (Unverified) said

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I suspect that the people that whine 'omg too many developers assigned to incarna/dust'. would be the same ones that would whine 'omg incarna/dust is taking to long' should they be reassigned.

I think that this whole issue has been overplayed. CCP has limited resources and multiple demands on them. What else do you expect.

Posted: Jul 24th 2010 8:33PM Dblade said

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No actually, I think they'd be happy if it were scrapped entirely.
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Posted: Jul 24th 2010 8:52PM Graill440 said

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Devs with other priorities and the ability to make political spin just to cover actual happenings.

The bottom line. CCP has other projects (read more than one) and resources are not going to be diverted to EVE that werent in the long term plans from the beginning of said projects. I stated from day one what the CSM was all about, the majority are just starting to come around after seeing the actual CCP motivations and what they will/can do for them, they knew this from the very start of it.

It is near impossible to go back and fix things unless programming safeguards were built in, It is doubtfull as old as EVE is they were even thought of. It would take huge rebuilds to address some concerns. And with all the other projects CCP will simply not commit anyone, as other things are more important, thats a fact.

It boils down to choices by devs, in this case they chose unwisely and find themselves trying to keep EVE subs which pays in part the costs of the other projects, yet they cannot readily fix the wants of the tiny EVE community as it isnt cost effective to devote so much time on such a small amount of players when other projects are being built.

Posted: Jul 24th 2010 10:22PM (Unverified) said

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I think the bottom line in EVE, is that CCP has you by the balls. Once you invest money, time, and cognitive study, CCP has you by the balls. Unless you've trained every skill you want, and have played every role you're interested in, you will still be forced to pay every month to keep your skills going. This is one of the main things that separates a massive cancellation-protest in EVE from any other game. You simply can't do it.

Alliances would lose their sov and billions in isk/hard work. People would lose valuable time training fighterbombers to level 5. CCP has you, and there isn't a damned thing you can do about it but pucker up and take the ride.

Posted: Jul 25th 2010 10:51PM (Unverified) said

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WoD vampire MMO i.e. Ambulation aka WiS aka Incarnia has nothing to do with Eve.

Posted: Jul 25th 2010 2:04AM Tather Demaleon said

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In general I agree with Dblade, although PVE and highesec related issues get passed through the CSM, they are of a percentage to match his early comments regarding the minority controlling the game.

Saying all that however, quite often the PVP, Lowsec and 0.0sec submissions posted in the assembly hall are of a better quality, the amount of Highsec mechanics that work fine are of a much higher quantity than those elsewhere (which are usually more complicated), and finally... most of the CSM members will bring up any issue aslong as its relevant and concise, regardless of their particular profession and/or the sec space they live in.

-T'amber

Posted: Jul 25th 2010 2:31AM (Unverified) said

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Things could be improved by one simple act on CCP's part. Why not devote a single team to implementing CSM issues?

Posted: Jul 25th 2010 3:56AM (Unverified) said

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You can not have power and give it away at the same time.
There will always be conflict between the users and the providers.
It is ridiculous to expect each party to play nice, the fight for the limited resource that is dev time will rage as long as stakeholders exist.

But, debate is good. CCP is not entirely unreasonable and some people will have to swallow their impatience while features are finalised. Sounds like any other organisation on the planet to me.

Posted: Jul 25th 2010 9:59AM bhags623 said

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What players fail to want to understand is that expansions like Incarna and Dust 514 draw in new players, which means more income for the company. Therefore, these are higher priorities than than fixing rockets which would appease maybe 8% of the player base. I commend CCP for creating the CSM to bring in feedback from players and to help the company learn from it's playerbase, but the idea that the CSM is going to arrive in Iceland and everything they ask for is going to be immediately given is silly. CCP has grown from being a small little game designer to one of the most successful in the world. Let's give them a little more credit that they might actually know what they are doing....

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