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Reader Comments (16)

Posted: Jul 22nd 2010 8:01PM EdmundDante said

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Interesting being an observer from the outside - I feel like I'm watching Machiavellian castle politics and power struggles. Considering that CCP is committed to providing a open relationship to it's playerbase (such as the yearly fanfest and the existence of the CSM) there must be some concern on CCP's side that the relationship will deteriorate if there is not some integrity and commitment to the relationship on their part (not just words).

It also remains to be seen whether CSM can hold it together in the face of both player dissatisfaction and/or pessimism and the slow paced commitment by CCP - with a mixed bag of court followers in the castle at Iceland and a mysterious King.

Posted: Jul 23rd 2010 12:06AM (Unverified) said

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What get's me about the CSM is that they claim to be representative of eve's players. Yet only 7.36% of players cast a vote in the election and these votes are obviously divided amongst those who got elected and those who did not (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CSM_voting_patterns).

Now we have this group of players voted in by a minority of players wanting to make decisions that effect the majority and getting upset when CCP says that there are bigger issues that they need to deal with first.
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2010 12:31AM Benicio said

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[Authenticstrength] - less than half of USA citizens vote in their elections yet those results determine who get to govern too.

And that's far more SRSBZNZ than internet spaceships.
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2010 2:24AM (Unverified) said

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[Authenticstrength]
That's why CCP never take them seriously.
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2010 2:45AM Brendan Drain said

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@authenticstrength
I should point out that players raise issues and concerns to the CSM and its the council's responsibility to collectively decide which ones are valid and should be entered into CCP's development backlog or which ones warrant further discussion at the twice-yearly Summit. Over the course of the now five iterations of the CSM, few council members have been wanting or able to just push their own agenda. Most have represented player ideas from different aspects of the game in a pretty even-handed manner.
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2010 3:50AM (Unverified) said

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Given the microscopic influence CSM seems to have on CCP and the game, I'm surprised even 7% have voted.

And yes, I voted with all my accounts.

Thank you Massively for accurate reporting on this issue!
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2010 9:15AM (Unverified) said

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The wiki page you quoted has been updated to include the current voting results (CSM5) - http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CSM_voting_patterns#CSM5

There was a record turnout of 12.67% which is a significant improvement over the 7.36% from CSM4. No it is still nowhere near a majority but it is improving.

Remember that the CSM has only existed for ~2 years and thus the process is being evolved along with the game itself :)
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2010 11:58PM Benicio said

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It certainly seems we are now at a tipping point between CCP actually listening to the CSM or being exposed as a PR sham a lot of people believe it to be.

There is a lot of ill-will ready to be pointed in CCP's direction if they dont handle this correctly.

Posted: Jul 23rd 2010 3:14AM (Unverified) said

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I would like to see reaction from the CSM about the recent removal of one of their number by CCP. Ankh was removed for some unspecified NDA breach or issue. Yet she was the most vocal opponent of CCP's handling of "backlog" CSM issues. Is that just a coincidence? I'd like some feedback on that. Otherwise it looks suspicious...

Posted: Jul 23rd 2010 2:23AM Brendan Drain said

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Some memebers of the CSM know exactly why Ankh was removed from the group. I was assured that it was both justified, and unrelated to anything Ankh did as part of the CSM. Out of respect for Ankh's privacy (and perhaps legal issues), neither members of the CSM nor CCP will give any details.

I should point out that Mynxee also appears to be a very vocal opponent of the way CCP handles the backlog of issues. It's been a sticking point with every iteration of the council, and it's finally something that might be getting addressed. It's also an issue the whole council agree on, and the next interview will go into some detail on that.
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2010 3:15AM (Unverified) said

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Thank you Brendan. That's all I wanted to know. You're the 1st person I've seen to give any insight into it at all. If you say that the CSM members know the reason and they see it as justified. Then that is good enough for me. But it is a good point to make because there may be others who felt as I did.

Posted: Jul 23rd 2010 4:13AM Brendan Drain said

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I should point out that not all of the CSM members know the details, but the ones that do confirmed it wasn't to do with the CSM. Ankh also confirmed that it had nothing to do with her blog or any other publication.
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2010 3:49AM EdmundDante said

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I would be inclined also to marginalize the players on the CSM board if it weren't for the fact that most of them are in fact very skilled and dedicated Eve players - one has even been a commentator on the Alliance Tournaments - another a well known member of the Eve Blog Pack - and so on.

And although 7.36% Eve players participated in the election that's still what? 10,000+ players who have validated the CSM.

In addition, CCP came out and said the CSM was to have a stakeholder position with Eve development - so clearly the intent is that the CSM is meant to be taken seriously and have some influence on the direction of development and/or other Eve related projects.

I think the CSM is a real win for both CCP and the player base - as you have a group of dedicated players who IMO are working hard to focus on issues that they feel - based on their experience and knowledge of Eve which importantly - lies outside the CCP castle in Iceland and the group think that developers and management can often succumb to - to provide add benefit to the development cycles for CCP at a relatively low cost i.e. they are not full-time employees of CCP.

Having been a software developer myself for most of my life - it's almost a dream come true when the client "for free" really wants to get involved in the project, providing input whenever possible - from requirements, to design priorities, to even testing ...

It would be unfortunate if CCP does continue to marginalize the current CSM panel - because they really are a group of very capable players and are not even remotely run-of-the-mill - random picks from the player base. What they have put forward is valuable and worth some commitment by CCP in return.

My two cents.

Posted: Jul 23rd 2010 8:31AM (Unverified) said

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I think it's just a matter of CCP not having the resources to place toward the CSM's issues at this time. Atleast not the scale that the players want to see.

While I have no doubt that the issues they brought up are valid and things that need to be fixed within Eve. You also have to remember that CCP has needs that they also have to meet. I am sure they have done alot of market resource into Dust and the next expansion and there other projects and found that getting them out is going to bring a bigger bang for the buck then putting said resources onto fixing issues with Eve at this time.

I doubt there is going to be much (there will be some) progress made on fixing issues until the projects make it out into the market / released (or are closer to release). Then the resources can be moved around and shuffled accordingly.

It seems a fair number of people think that the Walking in Stations is not going to bring anything to Eve in terms of new players and such. But looking at the long term, I can only see it bringing more options to the game and more things for people to do. A whole game could be made within it doubling what Eve is. Not to mention if the engine is also going to double as the heart for there next MMO. Then it just makes even more sense to work on both at the same time instead of having to drag your resources out on it over a 2x-4x longer period of time.

Posted: Jul 23rd 2010 11:50AM wcdregon said

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Man I've never played EvE but since the game has been released all the coverage I see is how involved the player base is in the improvement of the game. I wish more MMO studio's would take their players that seriously. Now, that being said as an outside I feel like CCP really needed some community feedback at the time they instituted the CSM but its obvious that the CSM is also viewed as a sort of red-headed stepchild. The come with grievances and they aren't privy as to why their grievances can't be repaired. Gaming is a for profit industry and as a businessman I wouldn't be excited about committing large amounts of resources to an 8yr old game but to say that they take the CSM seriously then turn around and say, we'll listen to you once a year and if you need to talk to us then send us an email at this email address that nobody ever checks because we know its full of CSM drivel we don't care to look at ever, thats a little unfair. when CCP wants to communicate with the CSM about the game, the council doesn't say send us an email at CCPComplaints@whogivesadam.com and we'll get back to you. If your going to be a trendsetter and seriously involve your community in the game's development, you can't change your mind when its inconvenient. Stand up and take some responsibility for the situation that CCP themselves have created. It was your idea to form the CSM, so listen to them and take their concerns seriously. They aren't airing personal grievances they are talking about stuff that affect the entire playerbase. As I said, I don't play EvE, but it seems like broken mechanics and lag issues are legitimate concerns, not issues that don't warrant the developer's attention. It seems sad to me that CCP does nto allocate their resources well enough to handle gameplay issues that effect their whole community. As an MMO gamer, a game with serious lag issues automatically becomes a shelf game. It doesn't matter how cool your game and features are if I can't enjoy them.

Posted: Jul 24th 2010 4:26AM (Unverified) said

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When I have spoken with the CCP reps at GDC, and E3 every time I ask about features, and the future of Eve, I love Eve, played now 5 years, but they have a over promise under deliver track record they have shown it time and time again. A rep will always mention the CSM when pushed, I then smile and say, but that's a great PR scheme to shut people up and keep them playing and paying for as long as possible, we all know what game development is like, you don't change a development schedule or remove or add features based on anything but what will increase the total bottom line for the product.

They always smile, nod, and some when they used throw parties during GDC and drunk enough have stated that I have it right. The CSM suggests, CCP looks at what they are already planning, and then cherry pick the items that can fit in the schedule or are already planned. I mean the article mentions two items "that came from the CSM" come on, everyone knows they made the change to the DD once that BOB carrier got hit insta popped with 32 of them, and only 16 showed up on the Kill Mail, they knew at that point the game was unbalanced to the point that it could hurt the bottom line and Hey what do you know we have a totally different DD system.

I don't remember the other one, but people please wake up this whole CSM thing is a great joke. If CCP will only fix what is needed to keep the money machine rolling until the World of Darkness (WoD) game comes out which they hope will have 3 -5x the subs. The newest "features" of Eve are a test bed for the technology for the new product, and all Eve players are basically paying to test the code, and having a lot of fun while doing it.

One thing is true regardless if you agree or don't agree with me, if you go into playing Eve with my statements above in mind, and like it anyway you have nothing to lose and lots of fun to be had.


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