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Reader Comments (28)

Posted: Jul 3rd 2010 4:55PM (Unverified) said

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Indeed.. On this we agree whole heartedly.. excellent article.

As to the 'safety and security at the price of freedom'.. You do realize that this is how the majority of the population in Germany and Russia and China believed in the middle of the 20th century.. right?

And from reading the background we have about Preatoria it seems that if most of the population knew the more 'unsavory' aspects of being ruled by Tyrant and his crowd they'd be more than nervous.. they'd rebel. Calvin may have a chip on his shoulder and want some payback, but he's not stupid. Toppling the regime is his goal. Getting the right information into the right hands and then diseminated has always been a good way to destroy terranical regimes.. Even those that are shiny and nice and 'appear' good.

There hasn't been 'generations' to test whether the serfs in Preatoria will be locked into some kind of 'caste' system yet. But from what has been published before added to what is now it kinda looks like the caste system is Powered -> Useful -> docile

Not enough information out there yet. but this we do know. If not for the powers of the Tyrant and his followers the world of preatoria would be ANY kind of utopia, it REQUIRES their 'magic'. Any form of government/society that requires certain specific people to even exist is DOOMED to fail. It will crumble and destroy itself, if not now, then as soon as Cole and his minions are no longer in the picture. Hastening that day is also another viable goal of the resistance. heh.. the needs of the many for life and liberty outweighing the one that currently has them.

-Dragons

Posted: Jul 2nd 2010 6:48PM (Unverified) said

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"My point is:
I think Praetoria has some good ideas that we could apply to our real world. They certainly have much better lives so long as they aren't criminals while innocent people here suffer and criminals get a slap on the wrist in comparison to what they deserve most of the time."


This my friend is THE most frightening thing you've said.

In the context of the game were there are supernatural or hyperscience ways to KNOW the future or to read a persons minds or intentions. The MYRIAD of other super abilities that can keep a society together without handing over the keys to power to petty tyrants and thugs and it can be managed/controlled by a few POWERFUL and 'good' and 'just' types is the only reason that Preatoria CAN be a utopia.

Here in RL where we don't have the luxuries of super powers we have just the tools that we 'normal' humans have.

History has proved over and over and over again that when you give power over humans lives and existance to other humans... BAD things happen.. Always.. Without exception it makes life WORSE for the society that tries it. Sereouslly.. Every single time it's tried (for the best of resons/intentions) it causes harm on a scale unimaginable to the good intentioned people who engineer it.

RL doesn't have the benefit/boon of these powers that theoretically COULD make the Tyrants utopia possible. The failed attempts litter all of history.

-Dragons

Posted: Jul 8th 2010 11:34AM (Unverified) said

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Tempes Magus, you are a fascist, and a far more dangerous person than any of the criminals you so despise and fear. You and your kind would create a society with no rights, a society where the state is God, a society that values its own perpetuation more than the lives of its citizens.

If there was any offense worthy of the death penalty, your intended crimes against humanity would be. Lucky for you that there isn't, because the death penalty is barbaric even in a world where magic wizards guarantee certainty of guilt and innocence.

Your one saving grace is that you are obviously not thinking about anything that you're saying. Earlier you (rightly) asserted that no one has the right to decide how much a human being is worth. Not one person, not a council of every person. But you're unwavering in your support of a society ruled imperially by a single man, making judgments over who is worth enough to live and who is worthless enough to die *daily*. He even delegates that responsibility. This is logically inconsistent.

You think making a wheel spin with solar power is equivalent to perpetual motion. You think 200 mpg cars are practical. You think the use of psychics guarantees certain knowledge of whether a person is guilty or not. PSYCHICS.

Please reconsider your positions. I hope you can see their weaknesses and recant your fascism. But if you can't, I hope you never achieve any position of power over another person in your entire life. Because you obviously cannot be trusted.

Posted: Jul 3rd 2010 5:17PM (Unverified) said

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Wow.. comparing Cole to Washington shows your grasp of history is a bit... lacking.

Cole and Washington were both thrust into the role.. Washington diffused his power to the people and states and helped SEVERELY limit the Federal government. Cole gathered power to his government and severely limited the power of the people. Washington REFUSED to be made king. Even going so far as to publicly admonish and deride the large majority of Americans that wanted him to be king. Cole became Emperor. Washington voluntarily stepped aside after 2 terms and began a custom that lasted for more than a hundred years. Cole has enshrined himself as a quasigod and leader in perpetuity.

Sorry.. Washington was a hero. Cole is the Tyrant.

And quoting the Declaration of independence that lays out Utopian ideals without the Constitution that GIVES them to us is just silly.

We can get as close to utopia as possible by SEVERELY limiting the POWER of government. Ruled by consent and agreement as opposed to force and coercion.

The Constitution exists not to GIVE power to government and those elected to office. but to LIMIT the power they have to very specific and finite areas. We have many problems and inequality because many in the USA, seemingly including you, have either forgotten this or didn't know it to begin with.

America isn't great in spite of individual liberties and freedoms. America is great BECAUSE of them. It's not by accident that we became or have lasted as a 'Superpower' or that we're richer than any other country on RL earth. It's precisely because we have the freedoms to pursue whatever goals we wish without government interventions that are common in most other countries and UNIVERSAL in Preatoria.

Emperor Cole's utopia can exist ONLY because of the super powers that exist in his 'cabinet' to force compliance.

The utopia of the US lasted for over a hundred years and has been diminishing for the last 80 or so as the government took it upon itself to do more and more that was NOT outlined in the Constitution. With the full will and support of a good part of the population.

Individual liberties and human rights can ONLY exist in a situation where there is no POWER of others to remove them through force of government. Collusion between business and government is a problem not because business is evil.. but because when you give their whims the force of LAW you get fewer freedoms. The bigger the government, the smaller the rights of the citizen. Emperor Cole has set up a government with ABSOLUTE power.. Therefore the citizens of said government have no rights.

-Dragons

Posted: Jul 7th 2010 1:07AM (Unverified) said

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yep.. 80 years ago the great depression was caused by that.. or were you thinking of some other great depression ;)

Emperor Cole has set up a civilization that keeps it's citizens SAFE.. that's not the same thing as protecting their rights.

in Praetora the citizens have NO rights.. the 'greater good' is more important than any citizen.. remember?

We can agree to disagree about safety and security verses freedom. That argument has been going on for all of human history.

I'll close with a quote that pretty clearly sums it up for me:

“If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the
animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your
counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you.
May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you...were our countrymen.” —Samuel Adams


-Dragons

Posted: Jul 7th 2010 5:31PM Patrick Mackey said

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I think everyone at Massively has a different take on this one.

Eliot and Beau might be apologists for a fascist regime and Bree might consider that the killing of others so that the majority may prosper is amoral.

From the perspective of a super-powered individual, I can only say this: Why should I be given the same rights as everyone else when I am entitled to so much more? Why should I be offered the same meager offerings as everyone else, when I have the individual power to seize what is rightfully mine?

Villains for the win. :D

Also, alignment wise, the average X is:
Paragon City heroes: neutral good
Rogue Isles villains: neutral evil
Praetorian loyalists: lawful neutral
Praetorian rebels: chaotic neutral

Obviously there are shades of grey there too; there are good characters fighting on the CoV team, and chaotic characters on the loyalist team. They're also probably pretty rare. I imagine that most characters on a given team are no more than one step in any given direction away from the average character.

Posted: Jul 8th 2010 12:55PM Patrick Mackey said

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CoX's horrible PvP (culminating in the i13 fiasco) is ultimately why I quit in the first place.

I could argue that the complete lack of any challenge in the game helped too, but honestly, I play Champions.
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Posted: Jul 7th 2010 6:35PM (Unverified) said

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heh..

Now don't miss represent me there magus.. I never said any of the sides in Praetorai was good OR evil.. that's sort of the point.

But you are comparing their 'nutrality' and saying it is good and would be good in RL.

Sam Adams WAS speaking about the laws.. Laws that put the good of a people (the Brits) first as opposed to the FREEDOM of each and every person. There is only so much power to go around. and the more powerful a government the LESS power (aka freedom) for the citizen.

ABSOLUTE power.. including the power to enforce 'proper' thoughts means ZERO freedom. Is this evil? Not necessarily. Is it 'good'? nope.. not that either. It depends on how it's administered I suppose. But it ONLY works in a world where there are superpowers that ALLOW you to assume absolute power.

I don't dismiss the Loyalists as Evil.. YOU vaunted them as 'good' and because I dissagreed you assumed such.

Exploitation can ONLY happen to citizens when others (people, companies, unions) can controll the legal and legislative systems to FORCE compliance. Cronyism is the worst kind of exploitation. A society with a weak central government that lacks the tools for groups of people to capture and controll the laws nationwide makes for a free and VERY civil society.. Note I didn't say 'good' or 'evil'.. Societies can't be either.. people can be.. but things cannot.

The biggest problem we have in RL America (IMHO) is the power of the Federal government has grown WAAAAY beyond the power limits imposed by the constitution. This has allowed corporations, unions, and many other 'special interests' to sway our laws in one way or another. Benefiting SOME at the expense of others is wrong and immoral.

But enough of RL. I'll be having fun exploring BOTH sides of Preatoria.. Loyalist & Rebel!

-Dragons

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