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Reader Comments (28)

Posted: Jun 30th 2010 1:28PM Shirogetsune said

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Good, bad... they're the guys with the guns. It doesn't really matter. Heroes might concern themselves with entering the Praetoria dimension and "liberating" it's denizens (which to me seems more like an act of war) but all us "craven, self-aggrandizing supervillains of the Rogue Isles" see is more self-righteous mooks looking for a face pounding.

Posted: Jun 30th 2010 2:07PM Valdamar said

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Good article. I like that Praetorian Earth isn't going down the same good vs evil route, as that has already been done to death on Primal Earth (i.e. in the existing City of Heroes/Villains content) - I'm looking forward to lots of shades of grey in the missions given out by both Praetorian Loyalists and the Resistance.

Original CoH/CoV's current lore is clearly inspired by the Silver Age of comics most heavily of all, with lots of the backstory being inspired by the Golden Age, but with Praetoria we'll hopefully get more of a Modern Age vibe where anti-heroes and other "grey" characters are a better fit than the blue vs red we've had to date. The dystopian impressions we've had of Praetoria in the released info certainly suggest that.

Sure, goose-stepping fascist archvillains and spandex-clad guardians of good are very cathartic and fun in their own way, but sometimes I yearn for something a bit more gritty that I can engage with morally.

Posted: Jun 30th 2010 2:12PM Meagen said

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"The price isn't personal freedom, as much as the anti-Tyrant faction would like it to be. The only price is simply behaving fairly as a member of the society."

Actually, the price is putting the needs of society ahead of all else - friendship, family ties, even your own happiness. If your best friend commits a crime, he becomes an enemy of society, and thus your enemy. If you know where he is hiding, you have to turn him in, otherwise you become an enemy of society as well. If your children would contribute best to society somewhere far away where you will never see them again, then you have to let them go, or you are an enemy of society.

"If you violate the simple set of rules laid out, then you will be dealt with harshly -- not out of malice, but to ensure that the perfect society remains perfect."

The problem with making perfect societies is that humans aren't perfect.

"You can beat down every Hellion in Atlas Park and send every single member to jail, but that doesn't change the underprivileged portion of society that creates further Hellions in the first place."

Okay. Let's imagine this for a while. My hero goes around King's Row, knocks on doors and tells the families living there: "Hi. You haven't done anything wrong, but you're part of the underprivileged class that creates criminals. I need you and all your family to leave this place, which will then be completely destroyed. Don't worry, we have a much nicer place waiting for you somewhere else, and a job that pays well and is perfectly suited for your needs." Of course, if for some reason they would prefer to stay, then they are enemies of society and I can just kill them then and there. After all, even if I end up killing *most* of them, but put the rest in very nice houses and with good jobs, then I'll have significantly improved the situation.

Wow, really makes me feel heroic, right there.

Posted: Jun 30th 2010 5:41PM Eliot Lefebvre said

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"If your children would contribute best to society somewhere far away where you will never see them again, then you have to let them go, or you are an enemy of society."

The alternative is saying that your wishes - your feelings - are inherently worth more than whatever benefit those children could bring to society. It's a kind of selfish line to draw.

That having been said, I don't blame anyone who disagrees with the column. The other side will get their moment in the sun as well, this one just spoke to me first.
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Posted: Jun 30th 2010 5:49PM Meagen said

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The point is, you can't expect people to feel perfectly okay with their children being taken away, or with being forced to abandon their home, no matter how beneficial the result may be to society, because *humans don't work like that*.
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Posted: Jun 30th 2010 7:46PM Meagen said

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Temptes Magus, I see you're very passionate about the subject, but I suspect you're got some reading to do to catch up. For one thing, perpetual motion is not just very hard, it's literally *impossible*. (Look up the Three Laws of Thermodynamics.)

I do think a better world is worth striving for, but I'd rather see it based on the idea of every person getting a say in what the rules are. Everyone could talk about what rules should be like, and then whichever rules most people agree on would be the ones everyone has to follow. Maybe have one guy running things, but only if most people agree he should be running them.

Posted: Jul 1st 2010 10:06AM Rodj Blake said

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It seems to me that the conflict in Praetoria isn't between good and evil, but rather between law and chaos.

Posted: Jul 1st 2010 8:48AM (Unverified) said

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This article eloquently summed up the appeals of Cole's society. Based on everything I've read to date, it seems like I'd side with the Loyalists. I'm interested in seeing the justification of the other side, because on the face of it opposition to this system seems foolish.

Posted: Jul 1st 2010 11:02AM Jeromai said

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Love this article. Please keep highlighting all the shades of grey that exist out there.

The image that kept echoing in my mind while reading this are Warhammer 40K inquisitors. They damn themselves to preserve the wellbeing of others, for the greater good. They are humanity's bulwarks against a storm of anarchy, and if the cost of saving the world is to sacrifice their own souls, so be it. A hero has to put the needs of others ahead of their own.

At the same time, nothing stops the Loyalist side from harboring villains who are out to manipulate the system for their own personal benefit. Maybe they started out meaning well, or they were bad eggs from the beginning. Perhaps the job gets easier when you shoot first and check backgrounds later, maybe the accompanying power, authority and respect is a heady drug.

Lots of unique perspectives and worldviews out there for a character background.

Posted: Jul 2nd 2010 12:14PM Jeromai said

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Nope, I mean the loyalist side. You're assuming the Loyalists are 100% perfect in the implementation of their vision. They'd surely love to perpetuate that image.

But nothing's ever perfect. Things slip through the cracks.

Villains belonging to the Loyalist faction do not necessarily have to demonstrate their villainy by killing Praetorian citizens indiscriminately. Imo, villainy is putting self ahead at the expense of others, disregarding others' basic humanity - your definition may differ.

Living off the fat of the land too richly by dint of one's top dog position, killing Resistance (how do you tell a person is a member of the Resistance anyway? I could kill them first, plant some evidence and claim the body was a dirty Resistance sympathizer by the time someone else arrived on the scene) members indiscriminately when others might try to 're-educate' first, just being a plain old sadistic bully (but for the "right" reasons, y'know!)

Sure, there are psychics who are supposed to detect intent to commit crime, can they really scan everyone? There could very well be enemy psychics who are stronger and can put mental blocks and masks in weaker psychics' paths. So there could be anarchists in Loyalist clothing too, though it'll be a dangerous high-risk tightrope to walk.
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Posted: Jul 2nd 2010 10:07AM (Unverified) said

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It's not a choice of Law verses Chaos.. this is always the arguments of Tyrants. It's a choice of Freedom verses Opression.

Serfs durring all periods of time were well cared for. Fed/Clothed/Protected. They were allowed to marry whom they wanted. As long as they stayed on their land and worked where they were required to they were 'safe'.

But.

They were GUARANTEED to stay serfs forever. As were their kids. They had zero choice in what they did.. Or why. or for who.

Was it worth it for their security and safety? For some.. sure!

But be assured.. the choice is about personal freedoms.

The ability to choose means (by definition) the ability to choose wrong/bad/evil.

Is the freedom of the many to do as they want.. and have the benefits of that those freedoms worth MORE than the opression to deal with the minority who would be 'evil' with their choices/freedoms?

THAT is the defining choice that has been made in Preatoria.

In Preatoria there is 'magic' and 'technology' to deal with a lot of the problems that raise their ugly heads in RL with this mindset. It can be done (keeping serfs) at a MUCH higher level of comfort and security.

Which means that because they have this 'magic' it trully IS worth it to a LOT more people. And it IS a Utopian society of sorts.

and a very interesting venue for the exploration of the 'grey' areas of good -vs- evil.

-Dragons

Posted: Jul 1st 2010 1:15PM Brianna Royce said

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"How many lives is a world without racism, poverty, or war worth? If you could save the lives of six and a half billion people by killing five hundred thousand, would it be a fair trade?"

I will be interested to see you tackle the other side of this, Eliot. A utilitarian might argue that it would not be a fair trade, because those 500k had no choice in the matter. They might individually choose to sacrifice themselves for what they perceive as a greater good, and we would call them heroes, but to have that choice made for them is beyond evil. Worse, any good gained from saving all those lives would countered by the loss in net happiness in all people, and happiness (in a generic sense) is what deters future crime and war. Would you truly wish to live in a society wherein you could be murdered by the State at any moment... for the greater good? One which can determine that your rights are worth less than those of others, and can be taken against your will for its own purposes? One which has the power and authority to do this, and presumably, far worse?

I'll side with hapless anarchy on this one.

Posted: Jul 1st 2010 6:55PM (Unverified) said

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The argument given in the article is that Tyrant's regime is honestly based on the ideal of "the good of the many," which is itself morally questionable. So that's two issues: does Praetoria have honest and virtuous leadership, and is it valid to value the many versus the few.

I tend to believe that Tyrant's regime is not truly selfless. The hints that we have been given suggest that like most regimes throughout time, it's organized so the people on the top can do whatever they want, and the people on the bottom better do what they're told ... and even if the peons do as they're told, they're still subject to the whims and prejudices of those at the top. In this regard, Tyrant's world more closely resembles a police state or "reign of terror."

Secondly, the value of the many versus the few only holds true when you're speaking of oranges and oranges. But people are not oranges. For any given purpose, usually one person is more valuable than another.

Or to express it in terms of things, which is more valuable: 10 pieces of gold or 200 gallons of air? Most would say the gold is more valuable, but what if you were short of air and needed just a little bit more to survive? The value of the two items changes according to the viewpoint.

In much the same way, more people are not always more valuable than few people. People simply are not equal in the way oranges are equal ... unless you're planning on eating them. And even then, you probably want the soft, heavy, juicy ones. ;)

Posted: Jul 1st 2010 8:41PM Brianna Royce said

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Tempes Magus,

Being selfish isn't a crime at all, let alone a crime worthy of an arbitrary death sentence. In fact, one could argue that selfishness is an unavoidable biological imperative, and one that makes civilization itself possible. Refusing to sacrifice yourself for unknown and unnamed others isn't a crime meriting death, either.

The fact that certain countries maintain a death penalty for actual crimes neither makes the death penalty ethical nor supports the assertion that selfish people deserve death.

I might commit murder to stop a murder in progress (for ethical reasons, fully expecting the law to punish me), but I wouldn't kill innocent people to save other innocent people. States generally have no such principles, which is why they cannot be trusted with such power.

That in Praetoria authorities have actual magical powers makes the "crime-prevention" argument rather moot. "A wizard did it" deflects all criticism. That's why I specifically quoted the passage about killing 500k (innocent) people to "save" the lives of billions. It's philosophically relevant regardless of the Praetorians' precognition.

Your arguments are, frankly, chilling. :)

-Bree

Posted: Jul 1st 2010 8:59PM (Unverified) said

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heh..

Chilling.. as are most of the arguments for Pretoria... but only from a certain perspective.

Mostly I find that it is well crafted and well designed to hold the shady 'neutral' between the 'good' characters in PC and the 'evil' in RI.

It's DESIGNED to not be good OR evil and to be a mix of both so when you play a Character there you can be EITHER good or evil and still fight/struggle/win/lose there.

Ethics of Good/Evil are distorted when you throw in the 'magic' of fortelling and mind reading and all the other super powers... Good/Evil become VERY gray in such conditions..

Which is why I will re-state. It's not about Good vs Evil .. It's about Freedom vs Oppression.. and THAT is what will make Preatoria an interesting place to "visit".

-Dragons

Posted: Jul 2nd 2010 12:57PM Jeromai said

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It's a really good place for grey. You can make arguments for "Freedom vs Opression", "The Individual vs The State or Society as a whole" and "Anarchy/Chaos vs Law/Order" and touch on themes like the fairness or blindness of justice, ends justifying the means and if there are any significant differences between intent and action.

Watch out for generalizing the 'factions' too much, Tempes Magus. I personally don't think a million souls would have the same alignment and act like clones of each other. As a group, the Loyalist faction may indeed seem 'lawful good' but there's individual variance.

The problem with alignment and 'Lawful good' is that it also depends on your point of view. As an upstanding citizen of Praetoria, the Loyalists are, of course, perceived by me to be lawful good. "They mean the best for everyone who follows the rules of an orderly society and take steps to eliminate the disruptive behavior of those poor misguided deviants." -- an upstanding member of Praetorian society.

If I was a member of the Resistance, I would see the Loyalists as 'lawful evil', having the presumptious arrogance to assign judicial power to a small portion of people, pulling the wool over other citizens' eyes (those poor law-abiding sheep who can't think for themselves) to an elaborate philosophical lie. "It all makes orderly sense until they break down your door and come for you personally, and by that time, it's going to be a little too late to regret that you didn't speak out for the others they took away." --- a so-called rebel, a freedom fighter against Tyrant

By the way, you've made some excellent arguments from a staunch Loyalist believer point of view, did ya notice you're calling the Resistance rebels, possibly subconsciously? To the point that it's scared some people. Love to hear why they feel it's 'chilling' because that's going to reveal how some of the Resistance might think. :)
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Posted: Jul 2nd 2010 11:32PM Jeromai said

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I would like to posit to you a dilemma. What if someone who claims to be a Loyalist confronted your stance and declared that you had crossed a line, your calculation of the greater good was inaccurate and you had taken the wrong action despite meaning to make society better?

He shoots first and might intend to take you into custody, or he might be meaning to eliminate your line of thinking by killing you. Do you fight him, and call for reinforcements?

If this is resolved via powers combat, wouldn't the one with the strongest superpowers win? And get to define what is right and what is wrong in the eyes of the law by virtue of the fact that he survived and the other one didn't?

After all, you don't need to poll "the people" to get a democratic vote every single time. They've already chosen to give you that power to decide, they've placed it in your absolutely worthy hands. And for the sake of the world at large, you're going to weed out all the terrorists who disagree with your line of thought, because it's really a small price to pay when you consider the larger scheme of things.
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Posted: Jul 3rd 2010 5:04AM Jeromai said

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Oh, I'm neither arguing for or against Resistance or Loyalist. I'm saying the designers have crafted a place where both viewpoints can exist in uneasy juxtaposition with each other, for a myriad number of reasons and justifications.
I fully intend to make a bunch of alts with different viewpoints to explore the hundreds of missions Melissa Bianco said there were going to be in Going Rogue.

I'm convinced there are good-inclined Loyalists who are true heroes, embodying most of the convictions you've described, doing their best to construct a dream of Utopia in an imperfect world, made that much more pristine thanks to Emperor Cole, his right hand men and the Seer network. And equally sure there are wolves in Loyalist clothing who take shortcuts rather than go through all the due process of checking and re-checking with Seers, etc.

http://goingrogue.cityofheroes.com/en/game-info/enemy-groups/ppd.html

To question one of them is to question Emperor Cole. Who watches the Watchmen?

True, you may argue that those who are apparently Loyalists but fail to follow all the rules are not true Loyalists - that's going to be an awful lot of people, not just a small minority, who are rebels that need to be put down (ahem, asked to see the light and convert to the cause or face imprisonment or death) then.

http://goingrogue.cityofheroes.com/en/game-info/enemy-groups/resistance.html

Lore-wise, I think it's confirmed that both hero and villain (and rogues and vigilantes) types do exist in the Resistance faction, due to their varied personal motivations and goals. To survive, they have small devices that mask them from the Seers, that suggests Seer network coverage isn't 100% perfect.
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Posted: Jul 3rd 2010 5:24AM Jeromai said

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"Those opposing the law, villains, in Praetoria are a minority. The Loyalists have the numbers otherwise they would not still be in power and thus they would likely win even if some of them fall."

Ah. Here we're going to have to agree to disagree. I don't think the Loyalists have the numbers. I think they had the _strength_ to keep in power.

(Lord Recluse doesn't exist in Praetoria, Marcus Cole is the strongest man around, and the people are fortunate that he has benign intentions toward them. His Praetors add to his powerbase, allowing him to create the Utopia that exists today. No one speaks of the cost though. For example, how -do- they have so many Seers? Are we sure all of them serve willingly?)

The Loyalists do have the weight of the unseen majority (the ordinary democratic citizens they're keeping safe and happy) and the righteousness of their cause on their side too.
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Posted: Jul 4th 2010 12:23PM Jeromai said

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http://goingrogue.cityofheroes.com/en/

I'm using Firefox and the drop down links work fine for me. Update the browser or enable javascript for the site, maybe? Not sure.

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