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Reader Comments (40)

Posted: Jun 29th 2010 5:40PM kazamxi said

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Tasos doesn't mean that no MMOs should be casual friendly. He means that not ALL MMOs need to be casual friendly.

He makes a great point that sometimes you shouldn't ruin the fundamentals of your game just because it might upset new players. For example, in DF looting takes time. Your forced to put away your weapon and look down too (in first person) LOTS, of new players hate this and claim its a fault with the game. They are wrong.

Vets come to realise that in a game without invisibility or names above your head, using the terrain to sneak up on someone or hiding behind a rock, are exciting parts of the game play. Slowing down looting and making you vulnerable to a sneak attack forces you to keep your eyes open and scan your surroundings. It makes something as simple as looting exciting.

Yes they do need to make starting the game enjoyable, but they should also never ruin the long term fun for short term understanding.

Posted: Jun 29th 2010 6:20PM Stormwaltz said

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It appears that he's arguing that since MMGs are a large, long-term time investment, they aren't casual games.

Personally, I think that's defining casual incorrectly. "Casual" doesn't mean you play for a couple hours a week, or for a couple of weeks and then move on. Casual and hardcore are measures of how much crap you'll put up with. If you'll keep playing despite suffering constant failures, heavy penalties, and frustration, you're hardcore. If you only play when you're constantly breezing forward with little serious impedance to your progress, you're casual.
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Posted: Jun 29th 2010 6:42PM Birk said

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I've only heard the terms casual and hardcore to denote the amount of time you can put in to playing.

I don't think I've ever heard anyone make an allusion to the quality of the game when using those terms. If you ever decide to weigh in on a hardcore vs. casual fight, make sure you let people know your definition first :P
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Posted: Jun 29th 2010 6:45PM Birk said

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Ah, I believe I misread your post. Your point is that casuals don't like it when the game is a challenge, and hardcores play it despite that fact.

I still don't necessarily agree; I am a casual player of MMOs (in that I dont have a lot of time to devote to them), but I have no problem with some frustrations and difficulties along the way. Heck, I even ramp up the difficulty by playing on a PVP server.

Anyhow, a lot of people use the terms casual and hardcore heuristically, flinging them more as an insult attached to some abstract idea of "wusses" (Casuals) vs. "hardcore virgin basement nerds" (hardcore). Neither is correct.
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Posted: Jun 29th 2010 7:21PM Sephirah said

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"For example, in DF looting takes time. Your forced to put away your weapon and look down too (in first person) LOTS"

Unless it's somehow automatic, I simply consider it a UI annoyance and find a game that, in addition to the standard grind, doesn't make me lose time repeating "put away weapon -> look down -> loot" for each of the billions of boars I've to kill.
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Posted: Jun 29th 2010 8:27PM (Unverified) said

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Unequipping your weapon, looking down, clicking to loot, then standing back up is not "challenging", it's "tedious".

The problem with most "hardcore" MMOs is that they aren't difficult by any stretch of the imagination, they just are long and frustrating (and by extension mind numbing). When I invest in a game, I want it to be adding to the lore, adding to the community, or adding to the knowledge (by discovering new tricks). I don't want it to be a straight investment of time and money for points.

-SirNiko
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Posted: Jun 30th 2010 9:54AM (Unverified) said

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The terms "casual" and "hardcore" are denotations of time spent playing the game. While you could claim that they also denote the areas of the game able to be accessed as a direct result of time spent in game, that's somewhat inaccurate as well, since strictly casual players have managed to clear instances the same as hardcore players have (it simply takes them longer).

It doesn't matter whether or not you 'feel' that those definitions are right, or if you 'think' that you have new definitions of the words used in this context. They are denotations of time spent on the game. As with everything else, people who don't know any better throw the terms around and muddy up the issue. It's like when that guy above used the word "heuristically"; totally wrong and nowhere near the definition of the word.

If you're going to use words and engage in debates where you attempt to base ideas and reasoning off of those words, I would suggest knowing the definitions of the words involved.
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Posted: Jun 30th 2010 10:09AM (Unverified) said

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Except they aren't definitions of time spent in a game. Those words don't have definitions, except the ones you've decided on for yourself. Just because you and your small group of friends agreed 'hardcore' is based on time doesn't make it true.

I think that reading all the other comments in this article would make that painfully clear.

-SirNiko
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Posted: Jun 29th 2010 6:19PM Egobrane said

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I agree with this 100%.

Posted: Jun 29th 2010 5:49PM Mad Dog said

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Played this game from day one, it has come along way since then. AV are doing a great job with DF so far, its not for every one though.

Posted: Jun 29th 2010 6:06PM (Unverified) said

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"its not for every one though"

Apparently, since 99.999% of the players in the mmorpg genre avoid it like the plague, except to make fun of it in forums or in global chat while playing good games.
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Posted: Jun 29th 2010 6:20PM Egobrane said

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Different people have different taste in games, dude. Just because you don't care for it and don't spend time talking to people that do doesn't mean everyone does.
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Posted: Jun 29th 2010 6:21PM breezer said

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They've done a great job at making sure nobody wants to try their super hardcore game that's so super hardcore only for elite hardcore pvpers and they don't even care if gay carebear casuals like it or not.

Funny to see them try to back peddle on their original, naive marketing spin.

Posted: Jun 29th 2010 6:34PM Jef Reahard said

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It's funny, I'm as carebear/anti-pvp as you can get, and I love Darkfall. Played it since a month after release (not straight through, due to other game commitments) but it's one I always return to.

The world has an old-school Morrowind feel to it, and I enjoy exploring, crafting, and just advancing at my own pace and in my own direction, all three of which are hard to do in the on-rails games.

I hate getting ganked as much as anyone, but that doesn't stop me from enjoying the game.

Posted: Jun 30th 2010 8:43AM Ocho said

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Your comparing to Morrowind really makes me want to play it, now... I love Morrowind and its one of the few games that was so good, it held my attention to completion in one straight shot. Not a quick shot either... I think I was playing for a month before I even started the main story.

Side-note, I don't get how the terms "casual" and "easy" became intertwined here in this thread. I feel they are two different things. I'm into PvP, sure, and I'll school most people, and I definitely like a challenging game. When a game is too easy, its a buzzkill. When its too easy, like WoW, theres no fun for me anymore. However, I truly define myself as "casual" because I don't have a ton of time to play. Maybe a few nights a week, and then only for an hour or two. Casual, imho, is all about the amount of time you have to play, not the intensity in which you do it.

Real life, the job, the new wife, friends, etc. don't get in the way... I just would rather go out and do something social with them and keep gainful employment than play a game. So I never could commit to any raid schedule or regular play night or anything like that. But because of this, don't assume I prefer to play "easy" games in my spare time. I'm casual... not a pansy.
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Posted: Jun 29th 2010 6:42PM (Unverified) said

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RAWR Massively posted something on a game I don't like must slam it!

Seriously? I played DF at launch and the game wasn't for me, I played for a month. However this interview is pretty spot on. MMOs aren't casual, they do have a larger investment than most games. Casual is subjective though.

Posted: Jun 29th 2010 6:51PM (Unverified) said

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What they fail to realize is that you WANT to attract casual players. They're the ones that pay the same amount each month, use less server resources, and generally complain less about game content/features.

Thats not to say that niche games don't have a place. If the Darkfall developers are happy with their product and the numbers they are generating, more power to them. However, WoW is the King of the Mountain for the simple reason that it caters to the majority. Its not new, or innovative, but it took the standard and threw tons of polish on it, then marketed it to the right audience. Do you think Blizzard cares if their top guilds clear new content days after its implemented, then whine about how easy it is? They're too busy counting the piles of money they're getting from the family of Night Elves that roleplay in Darnassus all night.

Posted: Jun 29th 2010 6:57PM (Unverified) said

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First off WoW did innovate. They built on ALOT of what EQ did. They took it to the next step, it wasn't just polish. What WoW has over the new breed of MMOs is polish but let's not forget that started with innovation.

Secondly they aren't saying that casuals don't play their game. They are saying that the casual gamer doesn't play MMOs because of the time invest. Sure if you compare the cutting edge raiding guild to the average MMO player they play less and could be considered casual, but then if you compare that same casual person to someone who plays wii once a week or maybe a game of MW a week they aren't casual anymore.
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Posted: Jun 29th 2010 6:58PM (Unverified) said

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"Do you think Blizzard cares if their top guilds clear new content days after its implemented, then whine about how easy it is?"

Actually, yes, I do.

If they didn't care, they wouldn't have moved to the normal mode / hardmode model that has allowed them to put in content that IS too hard for the top guilds to clear within days, without locking out the less skilled and dedicated majority from seeing the content at all.
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Posted: Jun 29th 2010 7:29PM Sephirah said

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@Carson

But you must consider that a good percentage of the player base is composed by "casual raiders" in WotLK, and giving them normal->hard mode progression is a way to keep them playing more, as adding hard modes extends the time people is willing to repeat the same content again and again (for better loot, achievements, titles, mounts) with minimal development cost from Blizzard.
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