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Reader Comments (46)

Posted: Jun 27th 2010 6:03PM DrewIW said

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The single most important thing CCP can do to improve the new player experience is to remove learning skills.

Posted: Jun 28th 2010 1:13AM (Unverified) said

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As an EVE player for years, I can stand by this statement. I think you are absolutely right.


In my opinion, the learning skills do nothing to reward the player. When you finish one, you breathe a sigh of relief and say "Now, I can get on with the game." Shouldn't be like that. I wish they would remove this limitation. The skills take long enough on their own to train even with all learning skills to level 5, which takes a good two months to complete, and essentially no one finishes that regimen due to fatigue except the hardest of the hard core.


You are 100% right.
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Posted: Jun 28th 2010 2:15AM Unverfied B said

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Absolutely this.
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Posted: Jun 28th 2010 4:44AM anduz said

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Learning skills were a mistake, so was the tech 2 blueprint lottery; neither are going away. It's not that bad though, if you remap to int/mem it'll take you around two days to get learning up to 4/3 and you won't really need anything higher as a new guy trying the game out for the first time.

New players who want to pvp are going to have a lot more bigger problems with lacking basic level 5 skills, things like thermodynamics and general wealth of the opponents they will face. You're just not going to be in a good spot when even low-sec is heavily populated by tech2 and you're flying a low skill vexor/rifter/rupture/whatever. Heck you won't be able to join most low sec corporations until you have several million skill points.

I'm not sure if Red vs Blue is around anymore, but that and faction warfare (to some degree) is really the only way a new pilot will be able to pvp right off the boat and have a chance. Your only real other option is to join a big alliance who regularly does newbie fleet ops, but I'm not sure anyone but goonswarm really does that.

That being said I think the entire article is a tad flawed by painting eve-online as a core pvp game. Pvp certainly can be an important part of eve-online because different interests means you'll have to fight for control over resources but at it's core eve-online is a player controlled market.

Being in research and development, mining or production corporations is just as fun and involving as being in a pvp corporation. Many corps and alliances have a mix of both, but I will agree with the article that playing with other people is crucial to your experience. Mining alone is probably the most boring thing in any MMO for instance, but it can be a ton of fun if you're running a 6 man mining op with everyone on ventrilo.
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Posted: Jun 28th 2010 4:49AM anduz said

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Guess Red vs Blue is still around, so check this out:

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1283881
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Posted: Jun 28th 2010 5:58AM Brendan Drain said

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I've got to admit, I'd love to see them remove the learning skills. As you mentioned in another comment, the new skillpoint refund system they're putting in could be used to let players re-assign the skillpoints from learning skills. Everyone could even be given an automatic attribute boost to compensate for not having the skills. There's not much of a down-side to that plan of action and I'd love to see it happen.
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Posted: Jun 28th 2010 7:29AM (Unverified) said

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Just to make it clear: The skillpoint bonus that they're doing on Tuesday (afaik) is a one off. They're only doing it because of the snafu with the server move which resulted in a 36 hour downtime last week.

I was in the meeting that the CSM had with CCP when this compenstaion was decided (http://bit.ly/bgv2wg), and it is definitley not leading to anything else (such as buying SP with PLEX, or trading SP between players.) The suggestion that this SP bonus be made a tradable item (from one of the CSM, not CCP) was quickly dropped with an almost unanimous cry of "No!" from everyone in the room.

We don't want to encourage any unfounded specuilation now, do we?

As to the learning skills problem, not only do you have people like me who have trained them all to 5 (waste of time I know, but I didn't know that at the time). Would I get both an SP refund, and get to keep the attribute points? while someone who hasn't even started training them, what would they get. just the attribute boost, or the SP as well?
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Posted: Jun 28th 2010 10:53AM DeadlyAccurate said

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As someone who's spent over the last 2 weeks training nothing but learning skills as pre-prep for a nearly year-long skill plan I set up, I have to agree. Today I finally get to move on to putting Target Nav. Pred. IV into my queue, and it's a relief to get to something I'll see the results of in-game.
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Posted: Jun 27th 2010 6:11PM Miffy said

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My problem with the game is there are no fair fights, which means PVP is no fun. I want for them to bring the alliance tournament type of system into empire. Sorta like WoW arena with in game leader boards where you can have 1 v 1, 2 v 2, 4 v 4 etc etc. The winner gets rank and loot or whatever and no podding allowed.

I'd really love this in empire because we don't PVP in the game anyways and this gives us a controlled environment to get used to it, without impacting the games world PVP. If anything it will make me better at PVP and more confident in low sec and 0.0 PVP.

This will also give me and my mates controlled group PVP. In the open world with 2 of my mates, we always get outnumbered by like 3 people and their 30 accounts between them lol. Just give me a system like the EVE alliance tournament and I'll be happy.

You could even pass it off as like a sport in the EVE universe.

Posted: Jun 27th 2010 7:59PM Laephis said

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You must have played a different WoW than I did, but there were no "fair fights" in the Arena either. Flavors of the Month dominated every season, so much so that Blizzard gave up trying to balance 2v2 and just gave out better rewards for doing 3v3 and 5v5. (In those brackets it's easier to hide game/class imbalance because there are more people participating.)

Anyway, Arena pretty much ruined WoW pvp, forcing the devs to juggle too many balls and giving rise to a ridiculous "e-sport" mentality that doesn't fit the game at all. EVE could stand to borrow a few things from WoW, but PVP ideas are NOT one of them.
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Posted: Jun 27th 2010 8:23PM Dblade said

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Oh for goodness sakes.

I'm going to list my most recent death in eve.

Ship I lost:

Punisher. T1 Frig

Ships that appear on my lossmail:

Drake: Battlecruiser
Hurricane: Battlecruiser
Rupture: cruiser
Taranis: interceptor
Harbinger: Battlecruiser
Scimitar: Logistics
Scimitar: Logistics
Scimitar: Logistics.

This was killing a T1 frig. No other fleet members in the battle.

When WoW arenas get to this level of potential imbalance, I'll agree with you that taking them as a model is a bad idea. But god, comparing WoW arena imbalance with EvE open world PvP imbalance is stupid.
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Posted: Jun 27th 2010 9:37PM (Unverified) said

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Where were you when this happened? You weren't in Hi-sec thats for sure and you obviously weren't sufficiently prepared for low or null sec. You can avoid unbalanced fights, not completely but sufficiently that it shouldn't impact the rest of your gameplay too much.

EVE is all about asymmetry, you might find it useful to read (and understand) The Art of War by Sun Tzu and applying some of it to how you play EVE. Through the choices you make you can counter that asymmetry somewhat. Situational awarenes, using the tools available to avoid getting into fights you can't win. Knowing whch fights you can get away from and how to do it.

That gang was prepared to catch you (they had in interceptor, if it hadn't been there you would have got away) but you weren't sufficiently prepared to avoid being caught. The tools are there, a scout in a covert ops frigate could have told you you were jumping into a trap. This is one of the things a corp and social connections are for in EVE.

Don't blame the game because you weren't prepared for the way it is. EVE is not WoW, nowhere is safe, fights are never 'fair' and someone always loses. You don't want to lose? Prepare yourself better, learn and adapt, change the way you play, because the game is certainly not going to change. Your choice of course ;)



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Posted: Jun 27th 2010 10:03PM Dblade said

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You don't get it. I'm not bemoaning my loss, I'm staggered at the thought that WoW arenas are such a bad idea in terms of fotm trends and imbalance that they can't be adopted, when I routinely see such horredous imbalances in EvE open world pvp.

I'm in FW. I scout and tackle for my corp and I know how it is. Probably better than you to be honest, I've been in blobs and caught by them, done small and large group pvp. Venekor has some points: the unfairness of EVE PvP is a major stumbling block for a lot of people, and a tournament might get people used to it.

And you don't need cov ops, yeesh. Just make deep safes off of the gate. I was in a low-pop system and distracted. It happens.
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Posted: Jun 28th 2010 5:47AM Brendan Drain said

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Dblade, I think the point being made is that while fights can be as imbalenced as the FW frigate loss you mentioned, to get into the situation where that loss occured required you to make a mistake. In essence, fights like this can be avoided with good use of scouting tactics and situational awareness. Of course that's exactly what you were doing, scouting ahead for your gang so that they could avoid the fights they had no hope of winning.

In a way, this makes EVE gang PvP more a game of strategy where the situation surrounding how you got into a particular fight is a major deciding factor in who might win that fight. A lot of fights are over before they start, just because one side forgot to scout or the other trapped them in a pincer movement. Unfortunately, new players aren't really made aware of this and their first experience of lowsec/nullsec is usually jumping in without a scout and getting toasted.
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Posted: Jun 28th 2010 10:53AM Dblade said

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Still misses the point I made in the thread, that a WoW battleground is not inherently worse than EvE's current PvP style, or more imbalanced. In other games, mistakes can be recovered from, and the strategy is in the battle as well as in the choice of engagement. In EvE that's a lot rarer, and there are worse examples than mine: many times the only strategy is not to battle at all. I've seen plenty of rifters run into 30 man gate camps just looking for PVP.

A battleground in hi-sec is a good idea, and people already do it when they offer 1v1 to each other. People are just afraid that others wont play the ganking game instead of it.
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Posted: Jun 27th 2010 7:35PM (Unverified) said

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I think you're wrong. Not entirely wrong, but too narrow in your scope. You've fallen into the trap of thinking about EVE using the same mental framework as other MMOs.

EVE starts as soon as you finish the tutorials, and here is why.

At its core EVE is not a game about spaceships and the ways of doing violence to them (PvP or PvE). Neither is it a game about rocks and the means of getting valuable ore out of them. Neither is it about sitting in a station watching your sell orders and tweaking them to beat the competition. EVE is a game about choices.

As soon as you finish the tutorial, every option in the game is open to you. You simply have to choose which one you wish to pursue. Every choice you make from that point on matters in a fairly fundamental way. The corp you choose to join, the skills you choose to train, and the goals you choose to set for yourself. The game if about setting yourself a goal (which you have to choose, its not going to be signposted) and the choices you make in order to achieve that goal. That process starts as soon as you finish the tutorials.

WoW doesn't start till the end-game. EVE is all end-game, no matter what you do.

Posted: Jun 28th 2010 7:16AM xBludx said

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Interesting comment.

The word "intelligent" derives from the Latin "inter" and "legere," which can be understood as "to choose among."

I just bought EVE for $1.99 and I hope that it will prove to be an intelligent alternative to most MMOs on the market today. What you have said sounds promising.
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Posted: Jun 28th 2010 8:53AM Thorium88 said

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I have to side with Mandrill on this one... saying EVE isn't properly enjoyed unless you "do X with Y" denies the beauty of the sandbox. Brendan enjoys Eve best with Corp Warfare -- fair enough, but that is not necessarily true for every player.

Eve doesn't really start until... you find something that's fun :)
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Posted: Jun 27th 2010 7:50PM Controlled Chaos said

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I have to admit, you do put a good shine on, "You need to join a corporation or you'll be beaten to a pulpy mess every time you're out of earshot of NPC security forces."

The problem isn't the fact that people need to join a corporation. It's the fact that, unless you're basically a long term player with some pretty nice ships, you're never going to get into a corporation that isn't basically a whipping boy for the big boys. Totally agreed with the PvP part of your article, but the corporation aspect is easier said than done.

Posted: Jun 28th 2010 8:42AM Damn Dirty Ape said

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I agree. As a new player who quit after 3 months or so of boring PvE play ( I know, I know, "I was doing it wrong") the problem seemed to be that there are like 10 awful corps whose sole purpose is to make the leader money for every 1 good corp, and most of them won't recruit people with under 10 million (or whatever) skill points.

There are exceptions, such as Eve U. Eve U is a great corp and I commend them for what they do, but Eve U is like attending that lecture in college with 500 kids in it. It's extremely easy to get lost in the noise.
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