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Reader Comments (19)

Posted: May 31st 2010 10:55AM (Unverified) said

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This was discovered the posted on the forums mere hours after Tyrannis launched. At that point CCP should have pulled the plug and did a rollback.

But they said during the itemID glitch a few weeks ago that they won't ever rollback for something like that because rolling back the database takes over 12 hours.

Honestly I think it would be worth it to sort this mess out.

Posted: May 31st 2010 11:26AM (Unverified) said

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It will be interesting to see how it is handled. They have the ability to go in and delete all the items in question with nothing more then a script. I imagine they are going to take some route along them lines, since CCP Chronotis went on to state that players "currently gambling on profiting from this error should heed that as a warning before splashing more isk here."

Sounds to me that if you planned on gaming the system your going to get burned.

They could just also change all the current planet materials (that shouldn't be in the game) into useless junk. Or even just change the requirements on the planet modules and such and make the current materials useless that way.

There are dozens of easy ways for them to fix the problem. The issue is going to be how bad are the people that gamed the system going to get burned in the end.
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Posted: May 31st 2010 12:32PM Psychotic Storm said

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CCP made the mistake players will get the flack?

Why? their mistake their responsibility, they brought the players they fed that mentality, ultimately any and every mess they get into is their and their alone, but players get to pay the rice.

They exploited a bug? whose responsibility is it that the bug shouldn't be in the first place, I think we are way too soft on game developers, if that happened in a store you would not only get away with taking an item at lower price, but could also sue the store for "misleading" you even if it was an honest mistake.
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Posted: May 31st 2010 12:56PM Birk said

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That would never stand up in court.

If I go to Best Buy, and some stockboy put a bunch of stickers on the HD Tv's saying that they only cost $9.99, do you think Best Buy is going to give you your brand new TV for under $10?

Do you think that any judge would rule Best Buy was being purposefully misleading, because of an accident in inventory?

It's a little thing called due diligence. If my multibilliondollar stock company hires a five year old to do my balance sheet, then I'm probably going to get my ass sued. But if my elite team of accountants manages to misplace a "0" (which happens more often than you probably think), then it gets chalked up to human error and it is corrected.

The same grace should be given to an MMO company, and players should have the accountability to see that a bug should not be exploited under any circumstances. Developers are human. Human errors happen.

What if the government installed a computer into your car that automatically gave you a ticket every time you went a mile over the speed limit. You'd get pissed pretty quickly, yeah? There's a little bit of grey area in which police won't ticket you for being heavy-footed.

Well, CCP isn't exactly speeding here. It was an oversight, and players should not feel entitled to screw with the system because CCP made an error.

Bottom line: If I was playing D&D, and one of my players found some crappy loophole in the rulebook that allowed them to exploit the sale of Ogre Mangoes, I'd slap that fool in the face, tell him wizards robbed him blind, and tell him to sit his ass down until 5th edition hit.
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Posted: May 31st 2010 12:58PM Birk said

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(If they haven't rectified the issues with Ogre Mangoes by next edition, I'm totally outta here.)
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Posted: May 31st 2010 9:38PM (Unverified) said

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@Tom316

"...Or even just change the requirements on the planet modules and such and make the current materials useless that way..."

That's an idea that would be funny to watch from the side lines. Just change the name of the item a little and all those that are stockpiling the mats will be left with junk. LOLs.


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Posted: May 31st 2010 1:27PM pcgneurotic said

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"The same grace should be given to an MMO company..."

Beautifully put Birk, but unfortunately grace is the one thing you will never, ever see an MMOG gamer offer. It's simply an unknown commodity amongst most gamers.

Posted: May 31st 2010 4:06PM DrewIW said

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The issue here is that this isn't a clear duplication exploit like the reaction exploit was. This is an economic opportunity caused by CCP's oversight.

Modules are being refined and built entirely within the established rules of the game. The continued existence of NPC sell orders only ensured that reprocessing modules was profitable.

Removing the NPC orders only rewards those (like myself) who got in on time and made an investment. For those of us who have cashed out, there's nothing that CCP can do except a server rollback. My guess is that their next move is to introduce NPC sell orders for the higher tier PI commodities for a short time. This will help to undercut people still hoarding commodities, as well as bringing POS prices back in line.

Posted: May 31st 2010 5:08PM Brendan Drain said

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That would go completely against what they're trying to do with Tyrannis, which is to take the NPC influence out of items like POS parts and let players control that entire market. What's more likely is that they'll make POS parts non-refinable, introduce the NPC orders for them again on June 2nd and then remove them again on June 8th when PI goes live.

They're likely to increase the yield of tier 4 goods from PI reactions by a factor of ten or a hundred and also increase the number required in blueprints by the same amount. That would kill the value of any tier 4 materials currently on the market so it wouldn't make PI unprofitable from the start.

For those that got in, made ISK and cashed out already, there's nothing that can be done about the ISK they made. I think they're safe from reprisal.
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Posted: May 31st 2010 5:19PM DrewIW said

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That's a very good point.

Basically they need to take steps that ensure that existing stocks of tier 4 commodities are devalued.

Your method makes more sense to accomplish that.
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Posted: May 31st 2010 6:14PM Crode said

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You can bet that a few players knew about this loophole by playing on the test server and hoping it would make it to live.

Posted: May 31st 2010 8:24PM (Unverified) said

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They took to long to take the items out that were causing the problem. Although the GM did warn that those that invested would regret it, over 400 bil was dumped in to this loophole by players. Any smart manufacture that have the means to produce is safeguarding against CCP possibly doing something to the required materials of the bpos already as well.

The only way CCP is going to really be able to make all those people who bought repossessing stuff regret their actions is by changing the yield that PI will give, essentially screwing over and destroying pos towers/structures, starbase,various random consumer items, and pos fuel markets, along with any reason to do PI (well...maybe not for those that like a death star for 10 mil). I for one do not see this happening though, its to large of a chunk of the market, so i feel those words were just a scare tactic by the GM to try and keep people from dumping more in. Another thing that has been mentioned is that they could roll back the servers, but to much time has passed now and any attempt by CCP to do that/remove the already created repossessed materials would alienate thousands of players and probably make many leave.

Their best possible solution atm is to just let the slip up run its coarse. The short term market is already screwed over for PI, but that will stop many from getting in to it. Within a few months things will balance out once the loophole stockpiles are mostly depleted. I would take a screwed up short term market any day over a loss of player base or another long term bombshell because of a mistake i made, i would think CCP would to.

Posted: May 31st 2010 8:31PM (Unverified) said

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i forgot to mention that even if CCP dose keep the NPC sales in to create a "isk cap" on items for poses and so forth after June 8th, that is still going to benefit those that bought and repossessed items. If people bought the right things, a advanced mobile lab for example could be sold for three times the amount it cost to produce easily. It also goes against what CCP was trying to do with the whole PI thing, making more items in the game player made, and not NPC supplied.

Posted: Jun 1st 2010 5:05AM (Unverified) said

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That's not like CCP, though. They don't want an ISK cap on products. They want the market to evolve naturally by way of player efforts. CCP likes letting the players work in a free market without arbitrary pricing on valuable resources.

CCP loves letting the players run the galaxy.
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Posted: Jun 1st 2010 7:05PM (Unverified) said

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The error is an oversight, a human error. Honestly, one that's understandable. The complexity of a game like EVE is absolutely insane, and even minor alterations can have large repercussions in areas that are widely separated.

The viability of Planetary Interaction is extremely important to CCP's long term plans. They've clearly stated that they intend to replace enormous swaths of NPC provided goods with PI products. This entails turning off one of their main ISK drains in the sink that is EVE's economy and handing over a large amount of territory to players. If the market is sabotaged, PI will be very unattractive on a large scale, and its use may be relegated to player corps and alliances that can manage in-house production of these items. Players uninterested, or unwilling to invest in this sort of production would be at the mercy of a very broken economy.

Let's also not forget that Dust 514 is meant to directly tie into the EVE universe through Planetary Interaction mechanics - in short CCP has an entire future game riding on the success of this system. I'd expect some pretty serious action to be taken to resolve this.

The two solutions I've seen so far are to dilute the value of the existing Tier 4 products, simply by changing quantities (eg. increase quantities produced and required a factor of100, reduce volume of the items by a factor of 100). The alternative is to purge these existing items from existence in the EVE universe, deleting all instances of these items existing from the DB, or depreciating them (think Melted Snowballs). The latter method would likely be somewhat more unpopular, and would have to be done before the command centers roll out on the 8th. Since these Tier 4 items can't be produced as intended, any that exist currently are as a result of exploiting NPC sold products through reprocessing. A full rollback is probably not in the works, as it would penalize the entire playerbase for the abusive actions of relatively few individuals.

Posted: Jun 2nd 2010 6:17PM (Unverified) said

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As we know from Larkonisgate during CSM III, CCP's statistics and revision team keeps transaction logs. That allows "corrective measures" also against those who have already cashed in and got isk from their deliberate exploit of the oversight.

Posted: Jun 2nd 2010 11:26AM DrewIW said

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With this patch, they changed all existing PI items to "broken". They refine into 10k trit, or sell to NPCs for 25k ISK.

This doesn't punish the people who got in early and cashed out. It does punish the people who did exactly what CCP said to to (stop trading), as well as people who may have not known about the debacle at all.

Fantastic stuff, CCP. Thanks for the easy billion.

Posted: Jun 6th 2010 5:24AM (Unverified) said

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Surely they can see from the test server who did this on there before the release and then ban them from the test server (seeing as they are not reporting bugs they find, but keeping notes to exploit them once they are on the live server)?

Posted: Jun 7th 2010 3:07AM (Unverified) said

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CCP + expansion = something sending the market crazy, and in completely the opposite direction to which they intended :)
T2 bottlenecks they fixed last expansion springs to mind... made a new bottleneck in the process and doubling costs.

Just wish I hadn't been away so I could have made some ISK :D

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