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Reader Comments (54)

Posted: Apr 29th 2010 8:16AM (Unverified) said

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Easy. World of Warcraft coupled with Deadly Boss Mods was the best end-game experience I have ever had.

It was so good, if I needed to AFK, I could call up my mom have her come over and sit through any given encounter while I did my needed errands. And when I got after the raid I usually had 5 or 6 new epics to call my own.

Name another game that offered this much awesome-ness end-game?

You cannot.

Posted: Apr 29th 2010 9:13AM Birk said

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I see what you did there!
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Posted: Apr 29th 2010 10:01AM Myria said

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I'm assuming, then, that you've killed LK 25 HM, right? I mean, it's so easy and all you must have it on farm...

Didn't think so
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Posted: Apr 29th 2010 1:48PM Birk said

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I think thats largely irrelevant. Certainly, LK 25M Heroic is a challenge. But its a challenge in the way that playing Simon is a challenge.

This is phase 1. Move to this spot and spam abilties 2, 4, and 1 in sequence.

Wait for DBM to announce phase 2. Move to this spot and spam abilities 2, 4, and 1 in sequence while jumping on to piles of gumdrops.

Wait for DBM to announce phase 3. Run to spot A, then spot B, then spot C, alternating every 14 seconds whenever DBM tells you to, while spamming the /dance emote and hitting 5, 4, 2, 3, 1, 5, 4, 2, 3, 1.


Non-uber gear? (that you farmed the regular instance for for three months). Well, not enough DPS or Heals. Fail because of gear!


I dont mean to sound picky, but the whole experience is artificially increased in difficulty by either a) requiring insane gear or b) severely punishing slight deviations from the expected sequence of actions required for beating said boss.

No room for any real strategic adaptations or dynamic confrontation. Just do what DBM says for you to do EXACTLY when it says, and make sure youre wearing your extra-shiny armor while you do it.
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Posted: Apr 29th 2010 8:17AM Pitt said

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Eq2, because after 5 years the endgame is still going strong, and only a very select few can say they've seen it all, let alone done it.

Posted: Apr 29th 2010 8:53AM (Unverified) said

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"Eq2, because after 5 years the endgame is still going strong, and only a very select few can say they've seen it all, let alone done it."

True, because hardly anyone played the game to begin with...
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Posted: Apr 29th 2010 8:24AM Ayenn said

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I am of the opinion that no one has developed a good end game. I would go so far as to say that the idea of end game is inherently flawed as the term is typically used. As it manifests, it is merely a carrot-on-a-stick tactic in design that serves only the purpose of instituting design meant to bait players, to keep them running in circles.

The entire concept needs to be rehashed. The description of a post leveling form of game play rewarding in and of itself rather than the current repetitious dungeon crawl would require page upon page upon of exposition. The first sentence, however would contain the words "sandbox" and "social".

Posted: Apr 29th 2010 8:28AM misterorff said

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Took the words right out of my mouth. Please give them back.
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Posted: Apr 29th 2010 8:28AM Scone said

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I agree with Angel, I don't understand how we can spend, in my case, a year and a half of leveling only to just be greeted with non-stop raiding, pugs, and some extra crafting. Raids are not the answer and even when Wrath came out, you basically got to end game after completing the major story line in each area because you could raid at level 78-79 for Naxx. Sure you have PvP and crafting but if you put all that effort to getting to max just for a couple things you have been doing for the past levels, it feels less impressive to reach endgame.
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Posted: Apr 29th 2010 9:08AM Faryon said

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I agree, but unfortunatly raiding and grind-PvP is the only kind of endgame most MMO players can imagine so it's very hard for developers to justify the risk of developing completly new endgame systems which could turn out to be a major flop.
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Posted: Apr 29th 2010 2:36PM (Unverified) said

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Exactomundo, Angel.

The idea of needing to get through "lower level" content to see the "endgame" content is just a flaw in design. I did not play Final Fantasy X to see the final boss fight - as a matter of fact I would say the final boss fight was far too easy and, if considered to have been the "end game" would be completely awful in regards to the current definition of the term.

That's the beauty of it, however, is that it is -not- the definition of the term. Endgame ought to be game. It just is. While playing a game, whatever the type - whether it be an EQ-theme park game or an EVE-sandbox - the endgame ought to be all throughout.
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Posted: Apr 29th 2010 10:40AM Renko said

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Well said Angel.
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Posted: Apr 29th 2010 1:57PM Ayenn said

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Something I personally have been working on in development concept is an idea that can be summed up in a single statement: "endgame starts when you first log in".

The concept revolves around developing a game system that is engulfing in such a way from the get-go that it permits an evolution of play and involvement that taps multiple forms of play style. It interweaves the narrative progression typical in MMORPGs as well as sandbox style play in a way that the transition from one to the other is seamless.

An additional aspect is the institution of passive player generated content not too dissimilar from the original noncombat aspects of SWG (the market/crafting system, the city/housing system, the embedded meaning of the entertainment system).

This is all wrapped in a tidy package that allows developers to track player action and interests in the game environment as well as outside the that environment to enable players to contribute to the ongoing developing "plot" or setting of the world over time.

If any of you are going to the Computers and Writing 2010: "Virtual Worlds" conference at Purdue May 20 - 23 I'll be presenting two papers in two separate panels that discuss elements of this design. If you are going to be there I'll be the guy with the pony tail and leather top hat. Bump into me if you like.

I know my ideas are sound and will work. All I need is for someone to let me implement them in their game. Its all about endemic player determinism and community oriented authorship. Imagine playing a game you "write" by playing the game and you are on the right track.
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Posted: Apr 29th 2010 2:11PM (Unverified) said

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you and everyone else on the planet has an idea!

The issue with having an idea is that it is easy to create an idea. The difficult part is getting it to manifest itself. Saying you are looking for someone to implement your ideas into a game is useless. You should be in the industry in some way, with some sort of proficiency (ideally programming if you want to be a designer). Then when you have met a bunch of quality people and they too think you are trustworthy and qualified you go to a production company and make a pitch.

Having ideas and expressing them on the internet is rather bogus if you ask me.
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Posted: Apr 29th 2010 2:28PM Ayenn said

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“you and everyone else on the planet has an idea!

The issue with having an idea is that it is easy to create an idea. The difficult part is getting it to manifest itself. Saying you are looking for someone to implement your ideas into a game is useless. You should be in the industry in some way, with some sort of proficiency (ideally programming if you want to be a designer). Then when you have met a bunch of quality people and they too think you are trustworthy and qualified you go to a production company and make a pitch.

Having ideas and expressing them on the internet is rather bogus if you ask me.”

Sure I and many others have “an idea”, this has truth to it. The difference between me and many others is I actually have developed design documents about my idea. I also go through the effort of submitting my work for peer review. Also, who says I do not work for a development company and that they don’t let me contribute to their design process? Programming is not the only route to developing games. I keep the whole design document close to my chest.

I rarely express my ideas on the internet. The few nuggets I have put here don’t even scratch the surface of what I am doing. Regardless, I have stated I am presenting part of my work at a conference in May.

If you want to troll for bubbles to pop with the fatalist needle, go for it. Mine won’t be. It is made of adamantine and fortified with vitamin I-got-the-credentials-IRL. If you want to see what I am all about, go to the C&W conference and bring your needle so we can have a good old time debating the finer points, that is if you have the credentials to attend. Come and see what I have to say.

Thanks, though. You made me grin ;-)
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Posted: Apr 29th 2010 8:30AM Pitt said

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I also have to add, after 6 expansions and 3 adventure packs, 459 zones, 54 x4 raidzones, 24 x2 raidzones, 148 group dungeons, guildhalls, battlegrounds, LoN card game, it would be safe to say that apart from eq1, nothing comes close to EQ2 for content.

Posted: Apr 29th 2010 9:46AM Belghast said

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The problem with all that content is... nobody is playing it. I play EQ2 as my "getting away from wow" game. It has so much depth of content, that I can't even begin to compare it to any other game. Problem is, it is a very lonely experience. Even on a very high population server the world seems very empty. Whereas with WoW on a High Population server, you have people everywhere and the ability to pull pretty much any group you could want together during prime time. So I play EQ2 for fun, but when it comes to endgame content the only real option on the table for me is WoW.
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Posted: Apr 29th 2010 10:12AM Justpotatoes said

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I agree. This past year, I jumped from WoW to EQ2 and I'm amazed at the sheer volume of content. I also love the variety of raid mechanics. Doing Djinn Master's Prism in EQ2 was one of the most challenging and satisfying raid experiences ever!

I have no trouble finding groups. The AB server is certainly not dead, and has tons of progression oriented guilds working their way through the earlier content tier by tier. Being able to mentor down and level lock has kept all the earlier content relevant.
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Posted: Apr 29th 2010 8:55AM (Unverified) said

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Guild Wars, for the simple reason that you hit the level cap so early, which means the majority of the game content is designed for max level. The addition of Hard Mode and Zaishen Quests further improved end-game content.

Though I also have to mention EVE Online. When you've trained all skills in one certain area, you can just start training another area. When you're the ultimate miner, train gunnery. When you're the ultimate gunsman, train your market skills. I once let EVEMon calculate how much time you need to train all skills in the game, and it's about 30 years.

Posted: Apr 29th 2010 9:05AM Tanek said

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Guild Wars would be my choice as well, although I'm not sure it fits in the same category of "endgame" as many others.

Where many games of the WoW/EQ2 veriety seem to be designed to build your list of skills/abilities so you have the whole set when you reach the level cap, in GW the level cap is just the beginning as you continue to collect new skills from quests, bosses, etc. I much prefer this to hitting a level cap and then (for the most part) just trying to collect better and better gear.

(Incidentally, this is one of the items on my list of fears when it comes to GW2. I want to trust them when they say it won't fall into the same traps as other MMORPGs, and I look forward to seeing how they approach the "endgame" idea.)
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