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Reader Comments (70)

Posted: Apr 23rd 2010 12:32PM (Unverified) said

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You really need to cut back on your usage of rape as imagery. While your comments might be sarcastic, they aren't constructive. I don't really see how CCP asking what female gamers would like to see is hypocritical. There's no guarantee they'll do anything, but maybe they are testing the waters and if they see suggestions that they feel enhances the game, they might use them. I'm not really sure why they are deserving of anyone's scorn for that. If you want to answer the topic at hand do so, but try to do it with 100% less use of the word "rape."
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Posted: Apr 23rd 2010 12:41PM macallen said

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It's intentional, tailored for this very conversation actually.

I've seen/been ganked in other games, pretty much every MMO that's had PvP in it, because I tend to enjoy being out on the edges, and being ganked is part of the game. In over 30 MMO's, I've never seen a game (or an MMO developer) where the term "rape" most adequately describes what happens in Eve.

In WoW, you're out mining or doing quests, and suddenly you're dead. Heck, half the time you don't even know who did it. It's the cost of playing. It's not personal.

In Eve, I'm mining in .9 space, digging Veldspar. There are other miners there, we're just digging. Suddenly, 3 ships appear on top of me and tell me "Greetings, we're here to rape you. Please scream, it makes the process more enjoyable for all of us." They then suicide gank me, take my cargo and leave, while Concord lamely shows up and blows away their cheap, throwaway ships. I lose millions, they lose a few 1,000 that my cargo easily replaces. In .9, "high sec" space.

I'm in a corporation, one we worked hard to put together, part of a huge alliance. Someone exploits a function of the game, hijacks the corporation, loots it, sends us all a mail thanking them for the pleasure of raping them (yes, they used the word) and disbands us. The next day, they're on the front page of eve-online as a celebrity.

I'm moving cargo out of Jita and it's lagging bad. My client locks up for a little bit, then I'm in a pod. I wouldn't have known who did it, except they were kind enough to send me an email, and guess what word they used? We could say I'm unlucky, except there are 1,000's of people who feel the same way. I know, because when I post like this, they email me saying "I feel you" or "yeah, that happened to me too".

Sorry, the word applies, especially and specifically in this context. No MMO in existence is designed to support and encourage the violation of another player more than Eve, and any woman who signs up needs to know that.

Posted: Apr 23rd 2010 1:06PM (Unverified) said

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I'm sure with your vivid imagination, they do.
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Posted: Apr 23rd 2010 1:08PM DrewIW said

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Why not fight back?

If people can do bad things to you, you can do bad things back to them.

People who have quit EVE or complain about it continually paint themselves as helpless victims, while quietly ignoring that fact that they have all the tools to defend themselves and reverse the situation.

If someone does something bad to you, do something worse back. That's empowering. That's EVE.
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Posted: Apr 23rd 2010 1:13PM macallen said

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Because I don't enjoy fighting other players. It's not why I play MMO's. It's not why a lot of people play MMO's....most, actually.

I do not have to pack a gun when I walk down the street, I don't want to have to have a fleet of friends with me in an MMO just so I can do mundane tasks. That is not fun, to me.

So why play Eve? Because I love space games, and my friends convinced me the ganking had mostly died down. I played for 6 months the last time I unretired before someone reminded me why I shouldn't be playing it.

Again, Eve is for people who enjoy the idea that they need an armed escort to go anywhere or do anything, enjoy the thrill that death can be around any corner, and women don't, for the most part.

What should CCP do to attract more women? Make a different MMO, one where victimized murder isn't job #1.
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Posted: Apr 23rd 2010 1:25PM Randomessa said

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Drew, to have to fight back is to let someone else dictate how I play the game I want to play. I don't play to fight, so I (and others like me) just won't play. The only freedom provided by a sandbox "kill or be killed" game like EVE is to those who like to kill all the time. Those who do not like to kill all the time are simply playthings or prisoners of the gamestyle. You can't win us over by insisting that we change the way we play.

(and so no, I don't play, and I don't ask the game of EVE to change. All I'm responding to is the assertion that someone who doesn't like to be killed all the time should just "fight back," disregarding the fact that that isn't the player's style.)
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Posted: Apr 23rd 2010 3:28PM Existentialist said

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Hmmm...

EVE is competitive. EVE is ruthless. EVE is cold and unforgiving. You are not promised progression, success, or fame. You are promised two things, a noob ship and a gratuity gift of tritanium, the rest is up to you.

Most aren't better than the masses, but I signed up to one of 0.0's navies and I get benefits from it. From plexing I have now funded a second account, I play for free (both accounts), and I have a Charon which I'm using to build the foundation of my trade Empire.

None of this is given to you. You have to take it. You have the rest of the market to play casual games, leave EVE alone.
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Posted: Apr 24th 2010 9:56AM (Unverified) said

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So basically you're complaining that you did not enjoy playing a game that is heavily centered on something you do not enjoy in the first place?

I wonder why....


and please, spare us the grim and gloom talk that always seems to be trying to pigeon hole every EVE player into some sort of sadistic evil griefer whose sole purpose in life is to ruin yours. Just about everything you complained about can be easily avoided by people who actually bothers to learn the mechanic and pay attention.

In 4 years, I've never gotten suicide ganked because I know what kind of ships I should use with what cargo; I've never had people disturb my mission/mining because i know not to do them in the hubs; when in Jita i always use an undock insta bm to get me away from the station, and again, use the proper ship; we've never had a corp/alliance theft because we actually paid attention to who we let in and control our corp access.

You don't need be a ruthless cutthroat to enjoy EVE, but if you're unwilling to learn the basics in how to protect yourself, then don't expect to find success either.
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Posted: Apr 23rd 2010 1:05PM Nef said

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First I'd look to see what women prefer -- sci fi or fantasy. Then I'd look to see what they prefer in gameplay -- PvE or PvP. Lastly, I'd examine if they felt the need to customize their appearance as a make or break deal for a game.

While not concrete, statistically you'd likely find they prefer PvE fantasy with customization features. Pretty much what EVE is not. It doesn't help that people have the wrong view of EVE -- that the only way to play it is by suicide ganking noobs.

I've played the game for over two years now and have not been ganked in high sec once -- even while doing solo and corporate mining operations, running trade lines, and missioning. While ganking does occur, it is by no means the plague that many of the commenters here think it is. You should also note that the majority of EVE's playerbase lives in high sec -- most of which do mostly, or only, PvE related activities.

There is no need to change EVE to try and attract a particular demographic if that demographic doesn't like the basis of what EVE is about. That would cause the current playerbase to become completely alienated. The very group that has allowed EVE to survive and grow -- yes, *grow*. The game is still going strong and getting better the way it is now, why try and radically change the formula?

Posted: Apr 23rd 2010 1:20PM macallen said

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Let me add...if CCP made Eve softer and more appealing to women, and did it genuinely (vs just painting the pig pink to lure women in to gank them), they would ruin the game. It would be worse than what Sony did to SWG.

They have a niche game, in a niche market, and it's tailor made to their customers. They've chased away everyone who doesn't enjoy the game, to the point where most folks wouldn't even consider coming back. If they alienate their primary customers, and turn the "He Man Woman Hater's Club" of Eve into a Co-Ed dorm, they'll destroy the game.

Posted: Apr 23rd 2010 1:20PM macallen said

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Nef, you're right, it's not a plague at all, it's random. As I said, I played for 6 months before it happened. However, women play the game differently than men.

Where I can sit here and say "I was ganked" and all you guys say "man up, sissy pants", if a woman gets ganked and leaves, she'll take droves with her as she goes, as if she was going to the ladies room. Nothing pits women together against something faster than one of them being bullied.

So it only takes once. It doesn't have to be a plague. If a woman can feel safe and still be violated, none of them will play the game. Period.

Posted: Apr 23rd 2010 4:10PM Dblade said

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I think you are taking it too serious. .

Thing is, its the joking that helps make it less of a problem. Its people taking it so seriously that gets it offended, or people not taking it light heartedly. It's not rape, its the loss of virtual pixels, and that in itself isn't bad. Losing sucks, but it can suck more if people dont deal with it right.

My problems with EVE is that its so unbalanced in PvP its impossible to have that kind of fun many times. You get ganked in seconds, and no one says a word.
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Posted: Apr 23rd 2010 1:29PM (Unverified) said

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There is nothing wrong with being upset about getting ganked, but there is something wrong with being upset to the point that you feel the need to repeat your tales of woe, ad nauseam, to people who clearly have lost interest in listening to your sad and pathetic life's story in EVE. You admit just now that it took 6 months before you were even first ganked yet in the original post you made you declared that it was "common." That's quite an about face. I don't mind listening to people who have constructive criticism to share about EVE or any other MMO, however you are clearly jaded, so much so that you don't even realize it yourself.
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Posted: Apr 23rd 2010 1:38PM macallen said

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I love irony. In a thread about "How can Eve cater to women?" people are replying in a manner that makes it perfectly clear female players are not welcome in Eve.

The comments about "as long as it has shopping and shoes" are hilarious. And what kills me is I honestly think CCP feels that way too. Why? Because putting avatars in a game where the fundamental style of play is the antithesis of women is putting pink paint on the pig and saying "look, it's feminine now!" The very fact that they're asking the question tells me they have no clue how idiotic the question actually is.

As mentioned above, If Eve made a PvE shard, put avatars in, the avatars had a huge (think Cryptic here) degree of customization and the avatars represented > 50% of play time (we spend more time as our avatars than our ships), it would attract more female players...and destroy the PvP game completely. The bulk of players would move to PvE, abandoning the PvP game, which would destroy the economy as well as leaving no victims for the wolves. These same PvP players would then hate the PvE side because it's boring and quit the game comlpetely. Oh, they'd go back to the PvP side, find it empty and barren, and leave.

Eve is a boys club, let it stay one.

Posted: Apr 23rd 2010 1:42PM kaelidancer said

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I'm a female EVE player - I've played off and on since the beta - and I have to say I love it for what it is - PVP, PVE, suicide gankers and all. It's a very unique world, and while I'm not a huge PVPer, I do love a game where one's environment is a very real danger, and that actually requires thought to excel. The depth and complexity of EVE keeps me coming back - getting ganked is just a part of the reality of the universe. It sucks, but it happens to the best of us.

But then again, I guess I'm not really representative of most female gamers (I'm also a major science and astronomy nerd), but I do know a few other ladies who love EVE for what it is. I think Incarna will go a long way to attract females, but planetary exploration is a much more intriguing concept, to me, than station walking. But both'll be nice, for sure :)

Posted: Apr 23rd 2010 2:14PM runzwithsizzorz said

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There are some things you can't cover up with lipstick and powder. Eve is one of them.

Posted: Apr 23rd 2010 2:45PM Samael said

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If I wanted work I would not be playing games. I like my carebear games, and I do not like PvP, specially the kind that has such a high loss factor.

It would be bad for EvE to make a PvE server to cater to people like me. Why? Because then all the PvPers would lose a lot of their prey. And a lot of people would shift to the PvE server which would wreck havoc on the economy.

I don't like EvE, it is good for people that enjoy such high tension games with such high flying drama, and lets not forget the gankers and such. It is perfect for them, and some people enjoy it. Hell a lot of people do. As can be garnered from the sub numbers.

But I find it odd that they has what they can do to attract females. Why specifically them and not a certain play style?

Posted: Apr 23rd 2010 3:31PM Kalex716 said

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Some people don't understand, that nothing in EVE is ever "Against the Environment". Its all player vs player. Straight up. Its the only real community game left. Everything has impact.

If you are a miner, who mines ore, and turns that into minerals to sell, you risk selling it to someone who will build weapons that might end up on a ship that shoots you some day. If you can visualize that, and accept responsibility, then you might be able to stomach playing that kind of a video game. If you cannot, you won't be a good member of the EVE community.

Miners are arms dealers. Shady dirty arms dealers who try to wash their hands of the dirty deeds they do as "innocent". But they are not.

Posted: Apr 23rd 2010 4:20PM Cinnamoon said

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As someone else put it, EVE is the kind of game I'd love to love. I love sci-fi (major Star Wars geek, I swear I kept Dark Horse in business in the 90s), I love capitalist crafting and trading games, I love sandboxes, I love PvP. I love being surrounded by men. I like kickboxing. I also like clothes, flowers, and interior decorating. So what? Pandering to a demographic as large and undefinable as "women" is just laughable!

Here's why EVE has never kept me: the crafting is boring, the resource gathering is mundane, trading is tedious, PvP is annoying, ganking is frustrating, the UI looks like some Terminus-style browser game, the UI is not designed for efficiency or user retention, skill leveling puts me to sleep and puts newbies at an endless disadvantage, I hate being "just a ship", it takes forever to get anywhere, paying for a new avatar is crap, it costs too much for what you get (compared to other MMOs), and, above all else, the game caters to pricks. CCP has abrogated their responsibility to their customers by *encouraging* them cheat and scam each other in ways that have real-world consequences. It's just not FUN for people who don't enjoy scamming or being scammed. All that on top of the game being a glorified spreadsheet! I would have put up with that in 1997, but now, when I have hundreds of choices? Not a chance. My time is too valuable to waste it away on a game without any GAME in it. Been there, done that. Next.

I don't think any of those reasons are because I'm a woman. It's because I am an escapist, and EVE -- as well as some of its more aggressive and misogynistic playerbase, a sprinkling of whom we see here in the comments -- just reminds me of reality.

*shrugs* Some people juggle geese.

Posted: Apr 23rd 2010 4:52PM Lokasaki said

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That survey is hilarious. There is no way there is that many females, and the majority of 'females' probably constitutes the huge and disturbing amount of males who wish to be considered as females in MMOs.

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