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Reader Comments (48)

Posted: Apr 13th 2010 11:38AM Rialle said

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The reason I do not like the "freemium" models I've seen too much are as follows:

- They try to suck you in under the premise it is free, and often in the early part of the game make it seem as such. But at later stages of the game, the advantages of using the cash shop becomes apparent. Any smart player expects this, but naive players may see this as a bait-and-switch.

- Not everyone is on equal footing. In a subscription game, all players tend to be on the same footing. I know every other WoW player pays the exact same $15/mo. as me and that we all have the same opportunities (aside from some cheesy vanity pets) to experience the content game. In a "freemium" game, someone who can afford to spend $30 a month in the cash shop will be at a large advantage over someone who can't spend as much. I do not like the idea of buying your way to victory or to bypass a grind that others have to go through.

- The game maker will always use their "F2P" model as an excuse for lower production quality, regardless of how much they are actually making. RoM seems to be the best quality "freemium" game, but it does not have the polish or production quality that most of the subscription games have. This includes the struggling ones like Warhammer.

- It does not stop gold spammers. Many people assumed that 3rd. party RMT would be cut off if in games with a cash shop, but I don't see this as being the case. When I tried out RoM the gold spam was just as bad as WoW, if not worse.
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Posted: Apr 13th 2010 11:42AM Beau Hindman said

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Well, this really isn't about liking the FTP business model. If you feel it isn't worth your time, so be it. This is more about finding value and admitting to that value when something is given for free.

Even if we are just talking the client, which (especially in the case of a Allods or Free Realms) alone is a great deal.

Beau
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Posted: Apr 13th 2010 11:46AM Vendayn said

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Free to play games often are more expensive than pay to play ones. Allods is a perfect example of this.
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Posted: Apr 13th 2010 11:49AM Thac0 said

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" Gameplay that was well worth an inventory that was limited, and harsh death penalties. "

No it wasn't it was the same game play wow has had for years there was nothing new or interesting about it with the exception of the art and minor game mechanics.

Players don't want to spend money in the cash shop because the games aren't compelling enough to make them want to pay. If a F2P game was so good that you were longing to log in all day and had day dreams about items on the cash shop you bet your ass people would pay for stuff; but the games are just not that good. They are "good" games but they are not that good and are treated by the majority of gamers myself included as time passers until some other AAA title thats really good or innovative comes along.

I read your columns and blogs a log Beau and, there is a general theme that goes through them. You are always asking things like "why do people look at f2p this way or have a bias?" "how can i change your mind?"

People have their minds made up by their experiences and feelings playing these games and your not going to sway them with your words. Seeing is believing. Your high regard for f2p mmos and their systems or models is unique and also one that is in the minority.

Most folks aren't going to get over the bad combat, clunky controls and terribad graphics of games like Mabinogi just because there is a gem of a system hidden somewhere inside. It needs to be the complete package or gamers will move on.
People don't eat an entire pizza they don't like because one slice out of eight is good.
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Posted: Apr 13th 2010 11:59AM Beau Hindman said

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Thaco- it is well established that the bulk of the gamer population in the world do not play a subscription based game. They play free to play titles. Hardly a minority.

I can see how you might think that I am trying to convince those that don't think the way I do, because I am. That's the purpose of writing what I do. If I thought everyone thought the way I did, I wouldn't say anything. :)

Beau
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Posted: Apr 13th 2010 12:08PM (Unverified) said

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"It is well established that the bulk of the gamer population in the world do not play a subscription based game."

But how many of those people use the cash shop? That's more pertinent to the context of what he is saying, and a number often ignored in these discussions, most curious given the importance of it.
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Posted: Apr 13th 2010 12:12PM Thac0 said

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Because of the venue where we are talking my inference was that "most gamers" are your target audience here at massively. That would be English speaking MMO players. Thats my fault for making assumptions.

However if you think your views are not in the minority amongst your readership here because 20 million people in Asia play f2p as their primary mmos I think you are fooling yourself. I don't know numbers, so feel free to prove me wrong. Although i suppose it depends on your idea of an MMO too. You feel FarmTown on facebook is an MMO where i would disagree.
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Posted: Apr 13th 2010 5:48PM whateveryousay said

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@Ultra

"But how many of those people use the cash shop? That's more pertinent to the context of what he is saying, and a number often ignored in these discussions, most curious given the importance of it."

I don't think it's curious, it's quite simple. Thaco will argue that people don't want to pay because they don't think the quality if worth it, I disagree. I believe people won't pay simply because they don't want to or have to. People are always looking for a free lunch, and to quote a tired and ugly phrase, "they want their cake and eat it too."
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Posted: Apr 13th 2010 12:15PM Beau Hindman said

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Ultra:

From what I know and have heard from developers, most gamers do not use the cash shop. Cash shop games make their money usually from those that pay enough to make up for the ones that do not. While many FTP do offer really, really nice things in the cash shop (and something I admit that can truly help your game-play) there are still millions that play the games completely for free. Myself, for example. Or when I do pay I pay for fluff items generally.

The strange thing is seeing the differences in age/market. The new games that are really making a splash here in NA seem to be adjusting their cash shop"style" to allow for more people wanting to pay a more average amount. At least, that's what I can gather.

Beau
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Posted: Apr 13th 2010 12:21PM HereticalPenguin said

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I don't see why people get red-faced angry over paying a F2P developer for the game they're playing. If a player doesn't like the game, that's one thing, but the idea that you are individually entitled to the entire game just because you downloaded it is stupid. I hate the attitude of a great portion of internet users that think that they are absolutely deserving of everything someone creates, be it music, games or whatever. The internet has made us so obsessed with the idea of getting something for nothing that the concept of paying for anything that even gave a hint at it being free makes people blow a gasket. F2P developers aren't trying to do a civil service, they're trying to earn a paycheck.

Yes, cash shop prices shouldn't be excessive, but MMO gamers shouldn't be turned off just because the developers suggest (not even demand, just suggest) that you pay them a bit.
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Posted: Apr 13th 2010 8:07PM Cromica said

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Suggesting to use the cash shop is fine, but when CS items are required to play the game for whatever reason and on top of that cost more than a P2p sub something is very wrong.
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Posted: Apr 13th 2010 12:32PM (Unverified) said

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I never understood why everyone latched on to the "Free to Play" moniker these games were given initially. It's super clever to allow someone to try the game so you can call it "free" but to me it's the biggest scam around. Restricting content and items in a cash shop format means these games clearly are not "free".
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Posted: Apr 13th 2010 12:54PM (Unverified) said

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Well because that's how the games are marketing themselves of course. Somewhat-free-with-an-overbearing-cash-shop doesn't have the same ring to it. Joking aside, that has always turned me off about these games too. It seems disingenuous to call most of these games free-to-play. I'm not so naive as to actually expect anything to be free either, but then why do we insist on performing the charade of calling it exactly that? The only answer I can come up with is to mislead people.
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Posted: Apr 13th 2010 3:31PM Pingles said

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Because I've played Runes of Magic for over six months without paying anything. I haven't been limited. I have fun. Guess what? Tomorrow I could quit having never paid them a dime. How is that a scam?

Do you think these games are TRICKING people into paying?

They are paying WHAT they want, WHEN they want unlike subscription models that make you pay whether you are playing or not.

Subscription games are now the scam.

I play Allods and I happily forked over 20 dollars when the cash shop went live because I felt that they had given me enough entertainment.

If I hadn't enjoyed it I would have quit NEVER HAVING SPENT A DIME.

Let's say they ARE trying to trick people into paying for expensive endgame content. QUIT! How much money would you have spent in a subscription game to get to endgame and realize you don't want to play it?

The Free-to-Play hate is annoying.
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Posted: Apr 13th 2010 6:31PM (Unverified) said

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Well I'm sorry for expressing my opinion as it is obviously not one shared by you. I forgot that in this day and age in society, one is required to have the same exact opinion as everyone else because god forbid nonconformism might take hold of our children and they might learn how to think independently. I love how any opinion that detracts from your own is automatically labelled as hate. Oh and use more capital letters. They make your argument more important.
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Posted: Apr 13th 2010 9:17PM Pingles said

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@Ultra-Humanite

Woah, slow down there, big fella!

For one thing, my reply was to Warren.

Secondly, I agree that there are lots of opinions on every subject. You gave yours, I gave mine. I don't think I wrote anything insulting. I just gave my opinion.

I can see where my CAPITAL words can sound like shouting...I just meant them as slightly emphasized. I'm cuddly, really!
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Posted: Apr 13th 2010 12:55PM Thrasher said

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I have played a ton of F2P titles and there are several things we dont realize in the west as well as tactics that are shady with the way they are free.
First most of them are from asia where grinding, hanging out with friends and paying for "leet" gear is the norm and is very accepted as the way a F2P works, want to be a bad a**? just buy the best stuff and be cool.

In the west we dont have the same perceptions we believe even in free models things should be balanced and the cash shop to be fluff or non essentials to end game,
A perfect example of this system is Rom, in rom the game is totally free until you near the end cap, then the cash shop is absolutely required as you dont collect gear like most mmo's in rom you build your epic gear from pieces of other gear you collect or farm for, until end game this is not needed and not expected but as soon as you cross the 52 -53 lvl gap the mobs double and triple (or more) their hp and strength requiring you to now build gear using cs or auction house, as a player w 3 toons maxed and never spending a dime I can assure you it can be done without real cash, before the flames of I dont pay for my game lets not forget that I do spend 100's on the cash shop using in game gold meaning someone out there is willing to pay for me because i do the grinding they dont want to.
Anyways back to rom the crap i cannot stand is you grind for weeks build some smoking gear and an update comes down making that gear worthless meaning more grind so i can build yet another set of gear so i can hit the next dungeon and collect stats so i can build another set of gear, all requiring item shop goodies to do it with. most of the F2P game i see (some are fun some are even decently polished) have the same flaw, no matter what your perception its just a well hidden lvl grind to get you to the end point where you will then need to use the cash shop, thats all they want nothing more.
usually in a pay to play the only thing required for me to have better gear then you is I just have to work harder then you. sure "if you cant afford it then dont play" comes to mind but at the same time its not cool that the only way to become that "leet destroyer" is if I have the 100's to blow constantly and this I believe is the #1 bias against F2P.
I do not mind supporting the games i play but when that same half polished experience comes at the cost of 100"s more then i would spend on a P2P with an actual developer who cares if they get paid next month, I cannot see it. especially when the game breaks down to just grinding end game content so you keep spending more in the cash shop to keep being elite.
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Posted: Apr 13th 2010 1:22PM Wisdomandlore said

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I don't have a problem with F2P games. I think it's great that developers are exploring different avenues for financing. However, most F2P games are stale imitations of WoW or are just Korean grindathons. That's why F2P games get bad raps. Because they're synonymous with grinding and blatant IP copying.

The only F2P game worth it's salt out there right now is DDO, and that started life as a subscription based game.
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Posted: Apr 13th 2010 1:35PM spamero said

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I rather pay fee then use the damn item shop, cause in the end you'd have to buy stuff for much more money per month then your average mmo subscription.

It's free or cheap at start but as somebody wrote you really have to use it at end game or you are fucked and it sux.

All in all I am having so much fun in Allods that I would never thought I could...
I don't mind spending even 20 euro on this game per month, but if the cash shop will get unbearable (aka much more expensive then that) I will simply quit (but the news from russian players are not very good).

Besides if you don't pay for the game (while in reality you do), you can't demand anything.. aka ... you don't like it? well, you got what you payed for.




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Posted: Apr 13th 2010 1:38PM Itoao said

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I cannot see why people get so upset also about F2P. I have enjoyed several of them although not to the level that I am enjoying Allods.
The one thing that got me was the pricing. It just did not seem worth it. Some items still seem overpriced. I would be more in favor of say a bag costing 6 bucks at maximum. 12 bucks still seems like overkill to me. If the prices were lower you would think they would be able to sell more and make up the money in volume. That is something that they will have considering it is F2P.
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