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Reader Comments (125)

Posted: Apr 2nd 2010 5:46PM Lethality said

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Why would this even be something necessary to contemplate having in the game?

They are going for heroic Star Wars combat - and gay lovers?

Seriously... leave it alone. It's ok that some places in the world remain "normal", especially video games where kids will be present.

Posted: Apr 2nd 2010 6:28PM (Unverified) said

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Wow...

"Gay lovers" are a part of reality.. a part of life in virtually every culture.

That's normal.

An artificial place in the world where their existence is intentionally restricted is abnormal.. and discriminatory.

Don't know about anyone else but I would be far more wary of exposing my children to that.

Of course this is only if Bioware insists on including the option to have romances at all. A previous comment actually made me forgot about my irritation with all this for a bit and made me question whether romances should even be included for gameplay reasons.

They seem to be spreading themselves somewhat thin and using resources on an aspect of gameplay that doesn't enhance the multiplayer aspect of this game (it is an an MMO after all) when they are already focusing so much on story and solo gameplay might be a little wasteful.

Plus it would end this absurd controversy which could hurt them in a business sense regardless of which way they decide to proceed. Considering how many subs they need it might be the safer option to just scrap romances all together.

Though that would be somewhat disappointing after all this.

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Posted: Apr 2nd 2010 7:55PM Lethality said

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Reality has nothing to do with it... we're playing a video game. And no, it's not "normal". Normal is defined as a condition that occurs more often than other conditions. By definition, gay is not normal.

And I agree, there shouldn't be romances of any kind in the game.... hetero or homo. It's not part of what the universe is about.
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Posted: Apr 2nd 2010 9:42PM sandwiches said

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@Lethality
It's OK for some places to mirror reality in some ways. Especially in a video game that all kinds of people play. So, get over it.

Besides, how would homosexual romances be harmful to kids?
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Posted: Apr 2nd 2010 6:12PM NeverDeath said

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I don't see anything being stated that dispels anything I've said. If you want to counter with facts and logic that is fine, but what you've done here is change the subject completely, which I can't blame you for - as you would have been hard pressed to object with anything of relevance.

I never said that any of my personal rights or freedoms were being infringed upon, because I'm not an insane Christian who believes that you're going to hell for homosexuality. What I said instead was that it would be extremely cost-ineffective to add this additional content to appease a very specific minority of the population as part of the pre-launch development. It's a waste of time and resources because in the end, it isn't likely to effect the profit margin to a very large extent if at all. MMORPGs are a very complicated genre, because most games in said genre require a subscription fee, which means that consumers of this product demand (and rightfully so) the continued progress and development of the game with enough things to do therein that it will justify the subscription fee.

Making sure these major game components are in place is much more important than pandering to the pleas of small individual groups. If you're going to argue for homosexual relationships, I could then argue for something I would want - which is a mature rating and more violence/bloodshed, to make the game feel more authentic. Of course, I (unlike some who shall remain nameless) realize that by choosing to give a game a Mature rating and more bloodshed, would be limiting the demographic of its target audience and therefore, its profitability.

Beyond this, I feel that if the game isn't given at least a teen rating, it will inevitably draw in kids as all games do, and by having these relationships openly available with no sort of parental control as has been suggested by the ignoramus could lead children who have no idea what's up or down in the first place to believe that homosexual relationships are normal, through no fault of their own. I have no problem with homosexuals, I think it's good that they can find what makes them happy and go for it, and in today's world all these uppity kids who think they have it rough should be thanking their lucky stars that they weren't born during the inquisition or even half a century earlier, instead of complaining that not everyone accepts them (which is the same thing EVERYONE of EVERY creed must face in one form or another).

But I do believe that people who try to impress their own ideals upon their kids in all cases but to teach a strong moral center and concern for mankind, be it sexuality, religion or otherwise, are manipulative and evil. And as fine as I am with homosexuality, and as neutral as I am to its existence, to claim that it is normal or to pretend that it is defies everything we know to be scientifically true about the survival of our species. Realizing that a game with story-driven gameplay may not have the target demographic of the under-10 crowd, it would be naive for one to think that no one of that age group will get their hands on the game, and it is a fact that in your formative and youthful years that you accept the reality of the world with which you are presented. If homosexual relationships were permitted, there would have to be an option to turn them off, otherwise I would be forced by simply following the chain of evidence to find that Bioware is taking a stance as a company to try and support a political cause, and they would lose my respect and my subscription for that.

It'd be just like when Tom Cruise or any other idiot celebrity tries to have a political opinion; They should shut up, and act.

Posted: Apr 2nd 2010 7:31PM RogueJedi86 said

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Couldn't all of what you said also apply to any gameplay element that others find to be a niche? For hardcore PvEers, they'd describe hardcore PvP like arenas exactly like you described a "gay option". Who are you to say which gameplay elements are minor and which aren't? Some would say crafting is minor, others say stuff like Housing is minor too. Just because it's minor doesn't mean it shouldn't be included.

Would you say it'd be okay to not allow people to make non-white humans? After all, we do tend to call them "minorities", due to their being less numerous than whites in Western society. I doubt you'd say it'd be okay to not add non-white options, because that'd offend some people. Well some people would also get offended if you didn't add a gay option.
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Posted: Apr 2nd 2010 7:41PM Randomessa said

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You most certainly did frame your point of view in a couple of paragraphs of complaints about "extra rights" and "tolerance" for different viewpoints, and when I challenged you to name a right that was being infringed upon, it was to get you to think more seriously about exactly what the root of your complaints was. If you think that was changing the subject too far from "think of the children/profits" then fine - what extra rights, exactly, were you referring to, then?

This time around you've stayed on-point, good job (oh, wait, you couldn't resist a jab at those "uppity" - nice choice of word, btw - kids these days. Did YOU grow up during segregation, by any chance?). Bioware should certainly think about how they should best go about catering to the two camps on this, and ultimately - since we are both talking about boycotts here - it would probably be wisest to leave romantic relationships out of the game entirely. Gays and their allies are gamers too, and their money is as green as anyone else's.

As for the "normalcy" of homosexualy, homosexual behavior can be and has been observed in other members of the animal kingdom (as mentioned elsewhere in the comments), with homosexual members of communities aiding in the rearing of the young (it takes a village, etc.). It is not always to our evolutionary benefit for everyone, ever, to be able to reproduce. Sometimes, someone's gotta help take care of the kids.

Or was it that by worrying that kids might come away thinking that homosexuality is "normal", you meant to imply that homosexuality is something you can catch, like a cold, or, perhaps, left-handedness?
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Posted: Apr 2nd 2010 8:09PM hansh0tfirst said

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"What I said instead was that it would be extremely cost-ineffective to add this additional content to appease a very specific minority of the population..."

You mean sorta like adding non-Caucasians as a playable option?

I dare you to propose brown skin tones would be extremely cost-ineffective additional content to appease a very specific minority of the population.
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Posted: Apr 2nd 2010 9:50PM sandwiches said

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@Neverdeath
You write so much but the all that rhetoric boils down to intolerance and prejudice.
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Posted: Apr 2nd 2010 6:43PM Matix said

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Well, to turn the article's position around, there's no real good argument to include such relationships, whereas every tertiary argument is stronger when made for the other side. The sole motivation here is political/socio-/special interest.

As for my argument, restricting content folks find offensive is done all the time, and to make a special case for an extreme special, prurient interest hurts the MMORPG experience.

Case near and dear to my heart: When Metzen changed the Alliance's religion from Christianity (see: http://www.wowwiki.com/Church ) to the Holy Light (see: http://www.wowwiki.com/Light ) it wasn't exactly nice to see what made me, well, ME, erased from a franchise I loved. But the inclusion on an IRL religion didn't set well with people, so it was axed. Check the TOS--you can't even mention IRL belief systems, politics, etc.

Now an extreme group (See the SW:TOR forum posts) EXPECTS INCLUSION? PUH-lease. The only justification for that kind of unequeal treatment is someone liking group X but hating group Y.

Putting biases aside, treat IRL groups the same--include or exclude them, but make it universal and equal.

Posted: Apr 2nd 2010 10:02PM sandwiches said

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So, you think it'd would be fine to include heterosexual romances but if people ask for homosexual ones, it's political? Sorry, but your bias is showing.

Regarding WoW, you'd have a case IF Warcraft had ever had Christianity in it, but, alas, it never has. Just because it has churches, doesn't mean it ever had Christianity and the links you posted do NOT support your claim in any way.

"Putting biases aside, treat IRL groups the same--include or exclude them, but make it universal and equal."

So you're not against having homosexual romances as long as heterosexuals one are also included. Sounds perfectly reasonable and that's all homosexuals, bisexuals and whatnot have been asking for.
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Posted: Apr 3rd 2010 5:21PM Matix said

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@sandwhiches

Aside from anything else, I am posting solely in my capacity as an MMORPG player. If that doesn't sit right with someone's IRL politics, then that's politics--keep it out of my games.

Second, to suggest that showing extreme bias by giving special treatment to a special prurient interest contrary to biology over and above all other IRL concerns is somehow UNBIASED is outright laughable as well as clearly politically motivated and unscientific.

As for the charge of bias itself, it would seem meritorious save that you chose to ignore the example of how wiping IRL-concerns from MMORPGs has already affected me AS WELL AS twisting how I am for equal treatment (either allowing or disallowing) of IRL concerns in MMORPGs. To suggest I'm biased based on a false presumption that an extreme special interest is somehow not political doesn't make it so.

Next, for the record (and I posted this on the SW:TOR forums) that I was, and still am, AGAINST romances, OF ANY KIND, between players and companions in SW:TOR.

Finally, if folks want to add IRL concerns to MMORPGs, count me in. I don't care what's allowed, so long as it's ALL ALLOWED and there's no special treatment.


And that's about it for me--I normally don't repost but I felt the need to make those facts clear for anyone reading after the fact, before I faded off into cyberspace. Side, I make sure to feed one starving troll a week, so I've done my good deed.
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Posted: Apr 2nd 2010 6:47PM Vitamin Dei said

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Think of the children.

When I was just a lowercase dei, and a very self-aware, frightened, and distinctly different flavor of queermosexual than what our school's GSA was working so hard to champion, roleplaying was a safe haven for me. One of very few. It allowed me to express some aspects of myself that I was still becoming comfortable with in a safe, intimate environment around a table with friends. And pizza. The pizza was very important.

Sexuality can be as critical a part of how we perceive ourselves and our characters as gender, ethnicity and social standing, and only allowing for us to go as far as "Sexings? [ ] Yes [ ] No" in worlds as alive as the ones BioWare has a reputation for creating is beginning to ring false. Give players the option to create something that they can completely identify with on every level and just make sure that getting to it is deliberate enough that the folks on the far ends of the Kinsey scale won't trip over it by accident and have their delicate sensibilities offended. It might mean the world to someone. Everyone else can ignore it.

For the record:
KotOR: None
ME: Liara
DA:O: Zevran
ME2: None

Posted: Apr 2nd 2010 9:47PM (Unverified) said

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in kotor if you were female you could romance Juhani, in ME2 both sexes of Sheppard can stay loyal to liara and/or have relations with Kelly
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Posted: Apr 2nd 2010 9:52PM Vitamin Dei said

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Oh, I wasn't trying to make any definitive statements about available homosexual romance options in games. Just iterating my romances in each, if any. My female Shepard romanced Liara, and my female city elf rogue romanced Zevran. I opted out in the others.
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Posted: Apr 2nd 2010 7:53PM SkuzBukit said

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As a dad who has already educated my daughter on the outlying principles & vagaries of human sexuality then as long as the sexual content is as understated as the movies were then I've got zero issue whether there are same-sex relationships in the game or not, I'll obviously play through much of what is feasible to get a "head start" & check out what exactly is broached & then keep an eye on the game as my kid plays as per normal, but I see nothing "wrong" with children having an awareness of non-heteroosexual behaviour, because you can't "make" someone a sexuality they aren't, nor can you prevent them from their natural inclinations.

On a personal notem whilst I've no curiosity to explore those themes in a game myself the wider populace having access to stories that may be more in tune with their own real life persuasions is, in my view, a good thing if they don't fall into the traps of stereotyping.

Posted: Apr 2nd 2010 9:02PM NeverDeath said

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LOL. Oh this is excellent, watching all of the assumptions flying around with such reckless abandon.

Either way, games have been around for ages without needing homosexual romances, and I think they can survive for plenty of time without them. The more complaints I see the more my point is proven, I am personally grateful that I was born in this era because I get to stand in front of tons of oversensitive crybaby kittens and tell them all to screw themselves. It would seem that they actually need someone to tell them that life isn't always fair and you can't always get what you want, because they are otherwise oblivious to this fact. Oh to be ignoramus.

Suck it up girlscouts. You'll (probably) live if they don't incorporate homosexual relationships into an MMORPG. If you don't bleed out from your emo wrist scars or drown on your own tears that is. People wonder why the world thinks America sucks. People here have it made compared to anywhere else, the state of which they all have us to thank in the first place. But the people here still find tiny insignificant things to complain about, despite having more freedoms now than people have known possibly since the dawn of human interaction. I honestly wish all of the people stuck in a state of mental infancy without a medical deficiency to justify it, would have been born just a handful of centuries ago. I would love to see it, truly. Grow the hell up.

Posted: Apr 2nd 2010 9:11PM Randomessa said

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Awww. The last cries of a dying worldview, the tears are so sweet.
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Posted: Apr 2nd 2010 10:07PM sandwiches said

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You'll also live if they do include homosexual romances, biggot. Keep it classy, cupcake. ;)

PS. Better starting getting over it because this trend will only increase as the biggots like yourself die off. =)
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Posted: Apr 2nd 2010 9:49PM (Unverified) said

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in kotor if you were female you could romance Juhani, in ME2 both sexes of Sheppard can stay loyal to liara and/or have relations with Kelly

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