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Reader Comments (13)

Posted: Apr 1st 2010 2:20PM Dblade said

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Problem is though leveling in CO is almost completely solo. Without the trinity and the ability for even Avenger builds to solo quests successfully, you don't get a lot of playing with others.

CO sucks in that sense because it reduces gaming really to raw dps and raw passive damage regen.

Posted: Apr 1st 2010 2:40PM (Unverified) said

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Another 'In defense of the trinity' post?

Heal/tank/dps is not the only way that players can perform a certain role in online games.

The comments from this blog post (http://www.zenofdesign.com/2009/12/23/the-tank-is-the-trinity/) do a good job of refuting the 'without the trinity all classes are homogenized' mantra.

Posted: Apr 1st 2010 2:57PM Aganazer said

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That reads more like a WoW-focused rant rather than anything constructive about the trinity.
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Posted: Apr 1st 2010 2:57PM Cinnamoon said

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No one used the words holy trinity, tank, healer, or crowd control back in UO, either. Nor in classic SWG.

Posted: Apr 1st 2010 3:10PM Aganazer said

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Using CO as an example of a game that has successfully tackled the problems of the trinity doesn't make much sense to me because its such a poor grouping game.

I am trying my best to think of games that have managed to break up the trinity in a successful and meaningful way. Frankly, I'm not coming up with much. There have been so few games that have (and require) coop play, but don't use the traditional trinity. Most of the games like this are just solo games that can just so happen to be played in a group.

Tabula Rasa did an okay job of keeping specialization without relying on a trinity, but in a group it still ended up with two roles, the healer and everyone else (that needs healing). That makes this as poor of an example as CO! :)

But I don't have a problem with the trinity. I like what it adds to grouping. In fact, I much prefer a quad over a trinity with the fourth role being the trap-monkey, lockpicking, sneaky scouting rogue filling the final role.

Posted: Apr 1st 2010 5:07PM (Unverified) said

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With D&D it honestly wasn't necessary to have a healer. The DM should've been able to adjust things on the fly or when preparing an adventure so that you didn't need one if you didn't have one. The exception (from what I hear) is the new D&D which (I hear) is based on WoW.

The problem is that with MMOs it becomes more difficult to balance things because you have to plan FAR in advance. So most devs take the easy way out and just make the holy trinity.

A long time ago I played a text-based game that had these adventures you could send your character on with other people (generally 10 people, if I remember, but it could be less than that depending on how many signed up). They were pre-programmed, but I don't know if they were set up one way or another for specific groups of people (since you had to sign up in advance).

I remember going with about 8 or so people. We had one person that was a melee, heavily armored type. I think we had one healer (by chance), and a mix of others. I know one character was even non-combat and MUCH lower level than anyone else there, so she had to be protected most of the time.

But, thing was, there were a lot of puzzles and other things to solve. There were people to talk to about what was going on. You might have to build a boat to cross a river (or go down it), dodge falling rocks, swim through a stream, etc. It wasn't just "okay, how do we kill this boss? tank and spank? one person kites one boss while we tank/dps the other? avoid green goo?" then trash, then boss again. It was an entire adventure.

I'm pretty sure that one part of the way it was designed was that the enemies would adjust to the stats of whichever person they attacked first. So if it went after someone that was lower level, the enemy's stats would be lower level until they died. Whereas if it went after someone that was higher level, its stats would be higher level until it died. There may also have been other adjustments (like if it went after a character with lower offensive ability, it would have lower defense, or if it went after someone with higher defense it'd have a higher offense), but I'm not at all sure if that was the case.

Regardless, the main problem with the trinity is that it forces people into a particular role and they can never experience anything outside that role (not to mention that it can cause shortages if not enough people roll healer or whatever). In the adventure I was talking about above, my character ended up at melee slicing and dicing with a sword (despite the fact that he was a mage) several times, and even defended two of the characters at least once by stepping in front of them to fend off creatures. I guess in a way the roles were still there, but they were dynamic instead of static and you weren't guaranteed failure if you were missing any one archetype. It was far more interesting than knowing "Ok, this person holds aggro. That person heals. Those people dps. Some weird stuff might happen - like having to kite, use specific types of damage, or avoid certain things, but this formula never changes."

So maybe what we need to get rid of the trinity is a new type of challenge in MMOs. Something beyond just combat. Then work on dynamic events - ones that adjust to the party's abilities (not in an Oblivion way, please). Finally, throw in some randomization so that the layout of an area or the location of certain events/encounters are not the same every time.

Posted: Apr 1st 2010 7:10PM (Unverified) said

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Brilliant!
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Posted: Apr 1st 2010 10:46PM Arcadian said

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"It's a great thing that the holy trinity isn't needed for the normal leveling content. I love the fact that I can run around in a support build and still take mobs down without having to deviate too much from being a 'healer.' I like that I can make a tank and not have to solo like a snail due to anemic damage. "

No Patrick, it just means the game is laughably easy and presents zero challenge to any player smart enough to take Regeneration. I still laugh at players months ago complaining their builds "don't make them feel like a superhero". It's why I left.

You can take any powers, you'll still roll over the game's content. If you do get into trouble, there's no death penalty.

Stop acting like this play style is a good thing.

Posted: Apr 2nd 2010 1:45PM (Unverified) said

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Your arguement is about to become invalid, Arcadian, since the next major patch they are introducing will bring many changes to the Supernatural powerframe. Regeneration is being addressed seperately from the rest of the powers, too.

"Smart enough to take Regeneration"? Wtf does that mean? People who don't want to break their character concept are "dumb"? Because it sounds like that's what you're trying to say. You laugh at people who complain about being forced to take a specific power? Now you're sounding like an asshole. Not everyone should be forced to take the same powers as you, and they deserve to complain if the game punishes people who take the "wrong" powers.

You can take any powers? Really? Tell that to my level 15 Fire Avenger who dies in 2-3 hits. Also, in case you didn't know, the games content does include dungeons that can't really be soloed. And the few bosses that can be soloed will take you about 30 minutes to kill. I suppose you'd describe that as "rolling over" the content though ,right?
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Posted: Apr 2nd 2010 8:46PM Dblade said

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Actually he is right. Regen actually seems MORE busted not less since the patch, with my level 35 fire character barely taking any damage with just it as a mitigation move. Your 15 fire should actually steamroller even as avenger: flame breath is very strong for taking out groups of foes when combined with fire form. You may not be able to solo groups 3 levels above you sometimes though.

I've soloed most content in the game except for some specifically designed not to be soloed, like some tough open missions. I even soloed the entire monster island crisis. I actually like CO a lot, but I can't deny that currently it's way too easy if you cherrypick the right abilities.
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Posted: Apr 3rd 2010 1:59PM (Unverified) said

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@Dblade
Who said I had Fire Breath? I don't for that character, it doesn't really fit his theme. He's a magician who specializes in Fire, not some sort of demon...

And I wasn't talking about a previous patch, I'm talking about the changes they're going to make in the next major patch that deals with everything Supernatural, which will probably balance out Regeneration.

Also, the Monster Island Crisis wasn't that hard. Solo Grond or Takofanes and maybe we'll talk.
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Posted: Apr 2nd 2010 8:26PM dudemanjac said

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The thing I've gotten sick of is ppl saying there is no reason to team in the game because you can do it all yourself. How about you team up with ppl because you want to? What is wrong with teaming becuase it's fun to play with others. It's the same grip on STO. Teaming nets bigger badder goodies, and it is more fun than doing it alone.

Posted: Apr 2nd 2010 8:46PM Dblade said

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You can team, but it's really not that much more efficient than soloing since the game's mobs simply aren't tough enough to use trinity tactics. You can team and burn through quests with everyone as a DD, and it does work, but there really isn't any point to use support, crowd control, or tanking. The normal mobs die too fast.

However, CO has some excellent team mechanics. Sidekicking down or up to anyones level, sharing any quest to enable people who have completed one or cant get it to get some exp still, and excellent mapping really make teaming easy: it's just the game isn't set up well for teaming unless you do the tougher open missions or bosses.
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