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Reader Comments (23)

Posted: Mar 30th 2010 4:07PM Darkdust said

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I also wrote a quick analysis (http://rift.chromebits.net/2010/03/30/review-of-mineral-insurance-changes/) of the changes.

Currently, they do not plan any additional changes for suicide ganking, as they want to balance that against compensating new players for accidental attacks. But, at any rate, T1 ship insurance gets a slight nerf in the revisions currently contemplated.

Posted: Mar 30th 2010 4:18PM (Unverified) said

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What is this, "Global Health Care?" lol

Posted: Mar 31st 2010 10:15AM Cupp221 said

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Nah, "Universal."
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Posted: Mar 30th 2010 4:56PM DrewIW said

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Tentatively, it appears to be a good start.

CCP addressed the problem, and is actually working to act on all 3 symptoms at the same time (mining, T1 loot, and insurance), to ensure a comprehensive solution. This is obviously a VERY refreshing change from the scatter-shot approach they seem so used to.

By moving to decrease the insurance payouts for T1 ships (fleet BS for example) and supercapitals, it's now possible for alliances to suffer strategic losses beyond moons and stations: Losing a BS fleet will not be quite as painless as it is now.

On a purely selfish note, it will be a lot less painful to lose Zealots (Atlas loves their sniper fleets...), and the changes to T3 insurance mean I might actually take my Legion out of the hangar!

All-around, a good devblog, and a refreshing change in their development strategy.

Posted: Mar 30th 2010 5:22PM Angelworks said

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I always thought that if you wrote some code that revoked the insurance policy if the ship was destroyed by Concorde that would at least make the miners happy that the person who suicide ganked them didn't actually profit from that.

Which does make sense - if I crash my car while robbing a bank - the insurance company has no obligation to pay for that loss.

Posted: Mar 30th 2010 5:33PM DrewIW said

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Your insurance company also won't pay if you crash your car while participating in a gun battle deep in the lawless wilds.

Gameplay trumps any real world insurance analogies (and yes, suicide ganking is gameplay)
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Posted: Mar 30th 2010 6:10PM Leumas said

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One of the reasons they haven't prevented insurance payouts to players destroyed by Concord is in deference to the noobs who don't know they can't shoot other players in high-sec.

It may not be a great reason, but it is a reason.
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Posted: Mar 30th 2010 6:41PM Psychotic Storm said

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I really sometimes wonder what is gameplay, what is intended gameplay and what is named gameplay because it suits us.
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Posted: Mar 30th 2010 7:46PM GaaaaaH said

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There is a big box that comes up the first time that states that you will be destroyed if you continue.

The economy report sayign that hulks had risen because of hulkageddon, when it was actually because of T2 build cost changes has be skeptical here though.

Can't wait for the very slow miners to realise what will happen to their isk/hour
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Posted: Mar 30th 2010 7:03PM Angelworks said

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@DrewIW

Concorde isn't going to shoot your ass in low sec ;). High sec isn't supposed to be the lawless wilds.

Posted: Mar 30th 2010 8:06PM Surelle said

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The whole fact of mining ships being completely unable to fight back is pretty ridiculous in and of itself. When I'm harvesting in Aion, or on EQ2's open PvP server Nagafen, or on a PvP server in WoW, etc., all my attacks and spells in the skill tray still work perfectly fine if I'm attacked. I can fight back just as I can at any other time. But not so in Eve. And the further kick in the pants is that Concord blows up suicide gankers but then they get insurance payouts. This is all a very obvious catering to gankers, period.

I have never seen a game that treats its harvesters and crafters so poorly, especially in light of the fact that practically every ship in the game is player crafted and relies on harvested ore for its manufacture.

CCP just doesn't have the guts to halt insurance payouts for suicide ganks. The relatively few noobs who blow up ships in empire "by accident" would only do it once and then they'd learn. An overwhelming majority of Concord-induced ship blowups are because of suicide gankers, period. This is just a sad excuse on CCP's part to cover the fact that the hordes of lame gankers who are too scared to PvP in low-sec and 0.0 where a ship could actually fight back make up a lot of CCP's monthly income and they don't want to lose them.

Posted: Mar 30th 2010 8:53PM DrewIW said

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On it's on, a mining barge or exhumer is relatively defenceless, especially if they fit for max yield and cargo space.

Of course, once you start to factor in teamplay (MMO and all that...) things are very different. You can use shield drones to keep each other topped off, as well as an Orca with remote shield reps and gang links. If you're in lowsec or nullsec, a Rorqual provides a very hefty defense against attacks. Both the Orca and Rorqual will also increase the efficiency of your mining. My personal favourite is an Orca with the Mining Laser Field Enhancement and Laser Optimization. The increased range and cycle speed means your miners can stay aligned and safe, and the Orca can be 60k away, tractoring in cans of ore.

For further defenses, take a look at Brendan's last two excellent articles on "healing" ships in EVE.

If you want to mine safely (as safe as EVE gets), the tools are there for you. You can't do it alone, but teamwork pays off greatly.
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Posted: Mar 30th 2010 9:17PM Brendan Drain said

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One of the problems I've always found with mining barges and exhumers is that they don't have enough hitpoints to survive long enough to assist them. In a heavy assault cruiser I've taken out tanked hulks in five seconds flat, which is less than the cycle time on shield transporters. As drew said, shield repair drones may work since they have a very short cycle time and each drones cycle time can be different. It wouldn't repel a full-on assault but it could stop a suicide gank.
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Posted: Mar 31st 2010 2:03AM kasapina said

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Your aion/wow/eq analogy isn't relevant since humans only need a tool to mine (Though I have to say, I wonder how a rogue will fight at her full potential with 30 kg of ore in her pack, but meh..), while machines need to be specialized, with the current technology. In real life, MiGs are fighter planes. Tanks are tanks. Bulldozers are bulldozers. Sure, you can give a bulldozer a portable machine gun to protect against light infantry, but you can't fit them with AP shells - a real tank will always destroy them. And I am pretty sure that tanks can't mine or harvest lumber at all.
Real life analogies suck, I know. Every game has its own laws, and eve miners CAN be fighting-capable. You can always put a few turrets on them, a few combat modules, and even use combat ships to mine. You can't, however, stack mining lasers and cargo modules on a slow and vulnerable but huge ship and want it to be combat-capable. To gain a given property for your ship, you have to give up something. Want better shields? Drop that cargo expander. Want a gun? Remove a few lasers! Want more hp? Mine in a combat ship.

I agree though, mining ships on eve need more durability. You'd think that a cargo ship would be structurally tough, but they aren't.
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Posted: Mar 31st 2010 4:20AM Psychotic Storm said

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I think that despite how sad it may (or may not) sound teamwork and socialisation in MMOs should not be taken for granted.

First of all babysitting miners is boring almost more boring than actually mining, I wouldn't want to enforce it to others, secondly especially in EVE were "everyone should be considered someone out to cheat you" why should anyone care to teamwork?
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Posted: Mar 31st 2010 4:45AM (Unverified) said

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I think you should post your thoughts on the official dev blog and in CAOD. I am sure the Eve community will want to know more about how Eve can learn from WoW and how our crafters can use their spells better.
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Posted: Mar 31st 2010 6:10AM Psychotic Storm said

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Typical, so why do you assume I play WoW?
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Posted: Mar 31st 2010 10:15AM cchance said

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I'm SO SICK OF ALL THE MINER WHINING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm a miner, i fly a hulk t2 fit, fit for survivability, and guess what i fly in nullsec, a dramiel tried to pop me fucker orbited me i overloaded my shield resistence, overloaded my boster, unleashed my t2 drones and guess, what that f*cker ran away...

Miners can fight back, of course they cant fight back against f*cking battleship ganks, but as was said, in new insurance loosing battleships wont be a 0 loss anymore, and a properly fit hulk can very well survive anything smaller than a bs strike!
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Posted: Mar 31st 2010 10:18AM cchance said

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@ Brendan: dude thats with a HAC, who the hell suicide ganks with a HAC? Talk about loosing cash, and with the new insurance if done right, BS ganks wont be very cost effective anymore, and a properly tanked Hulk can easily outtank a gank fit destroyer or 2, with the right overloads and fit,

the problem is too many miners fit for 100% speed mining and forget about a proper tank.
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Posted: Mar 31st 2010 11:57AM Brendan Drain said

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Chris, it wasn't a suicide gank. That was kind of my point, that you can't rep against someone legitimately attacking a mining op in lowsec or nullsec. Against a suicide gank, shield drones may help but keep in mind that a gank-fit battlecruiser such as the Brutix can get the same DPS as a HAC. The JihadSwarm used new characters in brutixes to kill tanked hulks in one or two volleys, which is far too fast for repairing to respond.
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