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Posted: Mar 14th 2010 3:44PM Ayenn said

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Agreed. If there is anything that can be pointed to as a source of the stagnation being seen in MMORPGs. At this point the (un)holy trinity is limiting play style options and design vision. Players try to adhere to the formula causing class types, that are well conceived, to go unengaged which leads to a kind of MMORPG version of class division that irked Marx so. Developers with no real vision look to older games for DNA patterns to clone because they are deemed financially successful" designs and repeat tired paradigms.

Developers need to recognize the trinity as the tunnel vision imposing tiny box it is, bust out of it and run like hell from it. Only then will MMORPGs actually be able to mature into the form of electronic entertainment they can be.
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Posted: Mar 14th 2010 2:19PM (Unverified) said

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In EVE Online, the trick is to fit your ship in such a way it fulfils all three roles. Plenty of armour repairers will simultaneously be your healer and tank, and some powerful turrets are your DPS. The lighter the ship, the more tanking becomes about avoiding damage instead of surviving it, by increasing the speed and inertia and orbiting your opponent at a large distance. If you are dependant on a support ship in EVE, you're doing it wrong, at least in PvP; your opponent will just burn through the support ship first, so you'd better bring an additional battleship instead of a support ship. In PvE, if you're careful with the aggro, a support ship can be quite useful, but again it's probably a better idea to just bring another battleship.

In a game like Guild Wars, there are a number of ways to tank. For a long time Shadow Form was the ultimate way to tank, namely by avoiding most types of damage completely, but that got recently nerved. Warriors are still good tanks because of their high armour levels and several tanking skills associated with the Strength primary attribute (though most skills are associated with Tactics, which is a secondary attribute meaning any other class can put points in it as well). Monks have several skills that'll heal damage faster than monsters can inflict it, but there you have it: they take full damage, it's just that they heal it so fast. Elementalists have many skills that'll increase armour but often impair movement speed, and lots of Ranger and Assassin skills are based on avoiding damage completely rather than increasing armour or healing it faster than it's inflicted.

But no matter the strength of your tank, you'll need someone to heal the damage you'll inevitably get and you'll need someone to kill the bad guy before he overwhelms your tank's health bar and your healer's energy pool. In the end, the balance between the three roles is what matters, and a fourth support class can make everyone's life a lot easier. Mesmers, Necromancers and Paragons come to mind for Guild Wars, in EVE Online it's command ships that give the whole fleet combat bonuses.

Posted: Mar 14th 2010 3:36PM Stormwaltz said

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The fun.

Posted: Mar 14th 2010 4:44PM cray said

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The MMO class trinity is is all about balance. Each class needs to do it's part effectively without making the other classes irrelevant. Tanks are defenders, DPS are attackers and Healers are the ones that tip the scales. The only thing that throws the trinity out of whack is that 2 of the 3 classes provide ranged attacks. It's important to make sure the defender class is worthwhile class when the other 2 can do too much damage....and heal itself.

Posted: Mar 14th 2010 5:38PM Bezza said

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Tanks are Defenders. Yes in the unrealistic trinity model this is true. But why apply a unrealistic model to a class that 'under the lore' of most mmo's is not a defender.

When did a warrior (traditional a tank in most fantasy mmo's) become solely a defender? Yes I agree in the trinity model you need a defender to draw agro and take damage. This should highlight though the failure of the trinity model, because a warrior is not (by any definition other than that set out by the trinity model) a person dedicated to defense and damage taking.

Ultimately in a real world environment, or an mmo that mimics the real world, or realistic tactics that may apply to the mmo world, a warrior may choose to attack as opposed to defending with an equal chance of success based solely on tactical considerations, not based on limitations forced upon players by the two dimensional trinity class system and players who have become overly comfortable even dependent on the trinity model and find playing anything else overly challenging.
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Posted: Mar 15th 2010 12:49AM cray said

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I never said or implied Tanks don't do damage. Also when I mean defender, I mean taking the brunt of the damage directed towards your party. Tanks manipulate the aggro of AI and often draw the enemies to area-casted trap set by a support character. Often times taking on damage hence being a defender.

Tanks do heavy damage, but it's melee damage at a slow rate. The other classes can not defend against melee.

It also balances itself out when tanks have poor ranged attacks and limited or no self-healing.

The DPS class (Rogue or Ranger) generally have superior ranged attack and fast but weak melee attack. They can not defend effectively in combat and have limited self-healing.

The support class is widely programed to be a healer, but but can offer abilities such as buffing and nerfing enemies from ranged attacks. This class is also unique that they offer area-casting. This class is usually the weakest among the trinity and has various healing abilities.
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Posted: Mar 14th 2010 5:26PM Bezza said

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Abandon the unholy trinity of mmo's! It is tunnel vision, limitation, unimaginative. I agree fully with Angel. Dev's need to look beyond the trinity.

MMO's are supposed to be a type of simulation of a fictional world, last time i looked at a fantasy environment in other media such as film, literature, no one who was a mighty warrior ever stood about "taking damage" while waiting for someone else to deal out the hurt. There is no such character as a "tank" in fantasy literature, why then do we see them in fantasy mmo's?

The same can be said for the other members of the so called trinity, these categories of players do not emulate the genre the MMO's are set in, they are an invention of mmo developers that do not belong in the world lore of most mmo games.

I find it astounding when players new to any given mmo try and work out what class equals what role in the trinity. Gods forbid players may need to actually think about the lore of the game world to develop a character that means something more than I am a healer tank or dps. Playing an mmo in such a way is so two dimensional it's painful.

Posted: Mar 14th 2010 8:47PM CitizenH said

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Indeed, City of Heroes has this problem of resolving the trinity with common conventions of comic books an super heroes.

Quickly, name which memebers of the popular lineups of Avengers or Justice League stay out of direct combat and primarily heal/buff? Few if any? None in the "Big 7" for sure.

Or ask yourself why being super strong and invulnerable automatically places you in a defensive role? In the comics I read, the villains are scared when the big guys like Superman and Wonder Woman show up because they'll mess you up, not because they play damage sponge.

The fact of the matter is, forcing the Trinity hurts some genres and sometimes does a disservice to your character. I think the trinity has it's place as a jumping off point, but you should never be a slave to it. Other systems and archetypes should be considered when the genre calls for them, like the Five Man Band for example, or the Power Trio.
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Posted: Mar 14th 2010 6:52PM Tristik said

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~~
It really depends on what game, and what part of what game, you're playing.

In some situations, you simply can't do anything in a group without a tank and a healer.

In others, you'll be fine as long as there is a healer in the group.

In yet others, enough DPS/CC classes can work together without the need for a true tank or healer.
~~

Posted: Mar 15th 2010 12:13AM Heraclea said

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"Tanks point to their relative scarcity and the pressure of their job, Healers point to their relative scarcity and the importance of their job...."

This is one reason why I prefer games like City of Heroes, where the "trinity" is downplayed and most characters can solo effectively. Having played those other games that do require tank and healer to do most teamed content, I can say that the tanks and healers tend to turn into prima donnas.

It's an occasion for minor drama if the pickup group loses a tank or healer; you aren't going anywhere. It's an occasion for major drama if a tank or healer quits your guild or circle of friends. This is one of the things that tends to poison the well of social cohesion in those games, IMO.

Posted: Mar 15th 2010 12:54AM cray said

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The MMO trinity is based on scissors, paper, rock system. Which is one the oldest and most sound gaming systems even devised. No other system balances game mechanics so evenly.

Posted: Mar 15th 2010 4:22AM TehKlute said

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PVP wise rock paper scissors is the worst for balance. Statistically its perfect but in terms of actual game play it is no fun always beating rock and always losing to paper.

Perfect balance can only come about by removing healers and tanks and giving everyone healing potions. Potions mean you can estimate what a health pool will be. 100 hp + a 30 hp potion once a minute, or 100 hp + the unknown healer factor.
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Posted: Mar 15th 2010 6:19PM (Unverified) said

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Viable? No. But perfectly balanced? Probably. Then again, perfect is boring. I think the point they were trying to make is as long as you have more than one class, things will be unbalanced.

Or atleast I hope that's what they mean.

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