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Reader Comments (26)

Posted: Mar 2nd 2010 7:51PM (Unverified) said

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"I mean, seriously, why bother?"

In PvP, the obvious reason to keep shaking things up is to prevent a stale metagame. ANet has always been good at this. The problem is that the same reasoning doesn't work for PvE. Any change to PvE now that PvP and PvE are split is inevitably going to be seen as "the devs didn't want me to play that way," and no amount of explaining can change the mind of a player who thinks that way.

"In (the original) Guild Wars, this was never a problem. EVER."

You are correct that a skilled GW player never *needs* to spam LFG. The AI is a tool: if you knew how to use henchmen correctly, you could breeze through Thunderhead Keep (where countless PUGs failed) with no issues. The problem was that few people knew how to use the AI, which led to more PUGs. Heroes have made AI more accessible at the cost of reducing the PUG population. You may think this is only for the better, but PUGs were as close as GW got to the traditional MMO structure. Without them, it might as well be a single-player game.
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Posted: Mar 3rd 2010 8:09AM (Unverified) said

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LostSoviet

I am puzzled by your assumption that PvE should never need balancing. It is impossible for the developers to take into account the way every skill (and GW has lots of skills) will be made to interact with every other skill in the game. Relatively speaking, there are only a few developers working on the game (Even at the height of work on GW1) compared to the number of people playing the game. Even after almost 5 years, there is no way that they have had the time or the need to balance everything. Add on top of that that they regularly change skills and mechanics within the game, which will introduce new issues to be dealt with and you can expect that there will continue to be balancing issues until the day the game dies.

On the concept that they have the right to dictate the way that the game is played..Yes they do, it's their game! I think they have done a fine job of allowing a variety of play styles. They do consider farming a legitimate way of playing the game, they just think it shouldn't be as easy as it has been. You can play it as a single player game, you can play it as a multi-player only (No AI NPCs used at all) game. Lots of choice in between too.

I also dispute your comment on Thunderhead Keep. Until the change when they made that nuisance dwarf stand still, it was almost impossible to do with just Henchmen. Heroes didn't exist, neither did the ability to Flag them to particular spots. That came much later. That pesky Dwarf would get involved in the fight and move completely out of the fort area if you weren't watching him carefully. Chasing him half way to the middle of nowhere was not fun. You could do it, but man it was a pain. I do not remember that "Good old day" with fondness.

I think that the constant updating and changing is part of what has kept a relatively old game active and interesting. The game released is a long way from the game we play today. The game has evolved. As long as Arenanet is willing to continue to support the game, it will change!

Posted: Mar 3rd 2010 2:28PM (Unverified) said

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I am not suggesting that PvE should never be "adjusted." There are always things that slip by testers and need to be fixed. What appalls me is using the "balance" argument in PvE - claiming that some skills need to be toned down because they are more powerful than other skills. First, no one benefits from such nerfs; they only hurt the people taking advantage of the powerful skill. Second, and more importantly, power creep does just start on its own; it is introduced by game designers.

You have to recognize how bad things look when taken in context. The design team creates a hard challenge (FoW/UW for Prophecies, Urgoz/Deep for Factions, DoA for Nightfall). The vast majority of the population tries it with the tools available and fails to complete it. Then, as more powerful skills are introduced into the game, the older challenges (which could never have anticipated these newer skills) become easier. Only after these become "accessible" - from the perspective of those who would never complete them otherwise - or "abusable" - from the perspective of the devs - does the nerf bat come down.

As for dictating the way the game is played... yes, I suppose they do. It just irks me that the company that once hailed communicating with its players as paramount would stoop to such dictatorial methods. If people are choosing to go for UWSC instead of balanced, this is an indication that rolling UW with balanced is NOT FEASIBLE for the majority of the population. If the devs want to keep builds diverse, they need to make the challenge more accessible so that low-powered builds still have the chance to succeed. It's not even a question of "how long" - some areas are simply impossible without gimmicks because they were *designed* that way. Look at what Dhuum did for UWSC - the update was simply seen as a speed-bump. Does that not strike you as ridiculous?

And Thunderhead, well. I went through Guild Wars (back when it wasn't Prophecies) with three characters. I always tried PUGs first. Thunderhead was the one mission where all the PUGs I tried failed. Sometimes the team didn't have a plan for the siege and fell apart when people ran off. Sometimes the team was so bad that it never made it to the siege. But when I henched and stood right next to the king (even when the king ran out), things died because henchmen followed my commands. Concentrated fire was key in that mission. If you had it, even from henchmen, you won. PUGs, even ones I tried to walk through the mission, couldn't muster any.

You didn't lose Thunderhead because you didn't have a certain build, you lost because you failed at basic teamwork. How many of the current "tough spots" of GW can boast that?
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Posted: Mar 3rd 2010 4:59PM (Unverified) said

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Ahh, yes, now I see your point. "Balance" is the wrong word for some of what they do. Some of the things they are doing are to change the Meta of the game. They are neither buffs or nerfs. (Although opinions will certainly differ on which are which)

My question to you would be, "Are they failing because of the Skills available for their character? Or is it because there is a fundamental misunderstanding of what is needed to succeed in a particular area?"
In other words, is it the PLAYERS skill or the GAMES?

The biggest misconception I see is that player think that they should be able to do it "their way", rather than looking at the situation and figuring out how it needs to be handled. "Balance" may be needed to adjust a "Odd" requirement that is just outside the experience of the majority of the players. I think this is what happened to THK. Focus fire is much better understood now than it was then, as well the advances in Monking (I can remember when a Protection Monk was laughed at, as I'm sure you can too) skill mean that prevention is at least as important as healing. Knowing what we know now (about the tactics of the game) THK would be manageable. Then, it needed "balancing". I agree, it probably shouldn't have, but it did. Reality sucks.

As to the way the introduction of additional skills affected older areas, even Arenanet has admitted that one bit them on the butt. The new skills combined in ways they hadn't even considered. Plus the older areas were simplistic compared to more recent additions. UW certainly did not have Mobs with secondary professions, like some of the newer content has. (Just as a example, I know that there are many more ways that the older content is simplistic) The work to go back and rework those areas is however, extensive and unfortunately I do not see it being a priority ever again.

I still think that the majority of the content does not actually need the specialized builds that people claim are essential. The overall tactics needed for a particular area may require certain things, which require that certain TYPES of skills be available, however I think that there is too much focus within the community on SPECIFIC skills which MUST be brought by certain PROFESSIONS. Down that road, you get cookie cutters. I like cookies, but not in my Guild Wars. It annoys me greatly!

Posted: Mar 4th 2010 4:04AM Doran7 said

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I haven't really played Guildwars since the disappointing Necro nerf of 2007. They fundimentally changed one of my favorite classes primary skill set. I didn't complain; I quietly stopped playing..

Guildwars was billed as a game where you had so many varied and different combinations that new interesting builds could still be discovered. but this in my experiance turned out to be hype. When a build that was powerful was discovered it usually got squashed in a nerf.

Perhaps something did need to be done with the shadow spec thing.. I don't know I never played the assassin long enough to discover the solo farm build, but I'll bet there could have been a better way to handle the ecto farming problem then nerf assasins directly. Like an update to the tombs and underworld areas. I'll bet I ran tombs 1000's of times with my monk.. I still know it like the back of my hand which is scary because I haven't done it in years. Why not shake things up there? Make a few changes.

(by the way, I didn't like what heros did to the game either. I used to enjoy running in groups to do things. After heroes there were new goals in outfitting your npc companions I suppose.. but part of the game I liked sort of died.)

The point of some people here, which I can see, is the game is getting older.. and players are trying to find challenging ways to play it in order to maintain their interest; Heck, I have few friends that have 4 year old characters in pre-searing that they play more than their post-searing characters. and why not... Farming ecto and soloing things has become a way to keep score.. to generate interest.. The player base is fatigued they need some new challenges. And by new challenges I don't mean that nerfing everything down to make the existing content harder.

Just a few content additions would go a long way.

Posted: Mar 7th 2010 2:16PM (Unverified) said

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the comments are tl so I dr
...
but
...
I noticed some epic bullshit in the article

"how many W/Es were abusing Obsidian Flesh?"

none. shadow form was better. however it got changed so that the movement debuff doesn't penalize players that are trying to play without consumables.. also it works better on eles now.. whatever..

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"It's safe to say that Shadow Form was never intended to be used the way it wound up being used"

fucking untrue, devs say otherwise

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"Want to title hunt? Want to revisit some old favorite areas in hard mode? Is there a particular set of elite armor that has caught your eye? Want to fill your Hall of Monuments with Tormented Weapons?"

or just do gvg, the original point of the game instead of wasting your life on pve

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