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Reader Comments (29)

Posted: Feb 22nd 2010 12:18PM (Unverified) said

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I love that one - we see it all the time:
"It better not be just another WoW."

Most of the time this is said by commentators trying to come across as a tall poppy. They just want attention, and to be seen as 'anti establishment' (likely because they think it's cool) and as you mentioned Sera, they likely wouldn't even know how to back up their claim due to not really knowing what they want with any depth of certainty.

If they stopped and thought about it for 3 seconds (unlikely) they'd realise what they're saying is similar to:
"Medal of Honour better not be like MW2."
or
"Gears of War 3 better not be like Unreal 3."

Here's the thing; I want KOTOR to be a whole lot like WoW.
I want the polish, the content, the infrastructure, the fun addicting gameplay, etc etc.. because it works. Add into the mix the SW universe and the features being described by Bioware (story focus etc) and it sounds like something fairly compelling to me.

I don't want KOTOR to be more like any other game *than* WoW.

I don't want it to cater for a small niche crowd, and I don't want it to be an online single-player game, and I don't want it to be full of minigames and designed for 30min play sessions.

When it comes to the alternatives (for those boldly claiming an anti-Wow stance); what alternatives, exactly?

Posted: Feb 23rd 2010 4:40PM RogueJedi86 said

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1. Kyle Horner wrote this, not Seraphina Brennan.

2. I'd hope TOR copies other successful MMOs. I'm looking at LotRO in a big way, which also has a story focus that TOR aspires to and WoW lacks. There's lots of MMOs that do things right besides WoW. WoW has been known to copy features from them in that way. I'd like to see TOR copy LotRO's player housing system, their emphasis on how you look(Appearance Tab helps there, with some clothing made just for the Appearance Tab), and indeed some of the storytelling aspects. WoW is decidedly lacking on those 3 things.
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Posted: Feb 23rd 2010 11:47PM (Unverified) said

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(Whoops not sure why I mentioned Sera.. apologies to Kyle)

I'm no Wow 'fanboi', but I know quality when I see it.
If you honestly believe Wow and the Warcraft universe is 'lacking' in story focus, you clearly haven't played any. Or if you have, you've clicked 'accept' blindly.
Seriously? Wow is dripping in lore. Easily as much of it hits you in the face when playing as it does in Lotro, if not more. In fact I end up feeling more empathy for the stories of Thrall, Wyrnn, Vashj, Arthas, et al than I do for any single character in Lotro (the game).
Open your eyes.

Re cosmetic items: they're already on it:
http://db.mmo-champion.com/s/74842/gnomeregan-overcloak/

Re housing: Blizz have recently stated (again) that it's deliberately not something they're sure would add anything to the game, whilst taking away from the social hub aspect of main cities (their words).
I tend to agree with them - at the end of the day in Lotro, the vast majority of player housing is a 30min 'ooh-err' gimmick that wears off.
There's a reason the housing instances in Lotro are void of players, and there's a reason why the vast majority of the actual houses are locked due to upkeep failure: Outside of extra storage, they're simply not used after the novelty factor wears out.
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Posted: Feb 22nd 2010 12:49PM (Unverified) said

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"5 Won't live up to personal expectations

Hey! Look at that. Some people are openly admitting they think BioWare can't live up to their expectations. If that isn't setting yourself up for disappointment, then I don't know what is."

That is unfair to gamers. Games are over-hyped by developers and gaming media as well as gamers. THEY set the expectations up for failure through abundant marketing or obfuscated information. Cryptic's STO and Age of Conan are recent examples of this. Is it the gamers fault that these games weren't released as advertised?

Posted: Feb 22nd 2010 1:12PM (Unverified) said

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I agree. I actually think the gaming community is becoming much more aware of the marketing and realzing that the PR departments of these MMO companies are hyping games up beyond what the developers are actually making.

We only know what they tell us, and if they tell us about cool features they don't implement we can't help but have our expectations not met. The fact that the gaming and MMO community is vocalizing that is a huge step in the right direction.
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Posted: Feb 22nd 2010 12:50PM swarmofcats said

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that was a good read

Posted: Feb 22nd 2010 12:53PM Randomessa said

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Forget WoW, I want SW:TOR to be as much like Guild Wars as possible without inciting a copyright infringement suit.

Posted: Feb 22nd 2010 12:53PM Loki1 said

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In the case of this game, I'm fine with its having a WoW basic structure... which means a sequence of quests inside a sequence of maps.

But i don't want any focus on gear or power... those make us greedy antisocial bastards.

For the above reason i want story and choices to REALLY matter. They're not just useless things to do while you're farming for the next piece of junk, they should and MUST affect the whole game deeply.

Posted: Feb 22nd 2010 12:57PM pcgneurotic said

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I guts are telling me it'll be WoW-in-space, although my concious mind is hoping it'll be more a case of 'Eve-in-Star Wars'...

Posted: Feb 22nd 2010 1:06PM LuxAurumque said

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I was with you up until you said you liked the ending of the Harry Potter books. Now we know you are just insane. I weep and pray for your poor broken mind.

Posted: Feb 22nd 2010 1:21PM Averice said

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@Lok1 I really can't see any way for the story elements to be any deeper than they were in the recent DA:O and ME2... in which honestly? They aren't that deep. Yes, they feel deep on the social strata of party members, but as a plot device all they do is choose one of 2 possible paths for you. Without party members you are trying to woo it falls a bit short. It's just a bunch of flags, and the Japanese perfected that Years ago. Sure, the text is different, but everything else is pretty much the same. Bioware's doing a great job with it, but you're not going to see anything that deeply effects the game in any way, it just can't work for an MMO.

What kind of deep effects do you want even? Do you want bosses once killed to never respawn? Do you want permanent stat placement based on choices you've made in dialogue? The second one could work, but I'm not sure if that's really deep, that's more of a frustration mechanic.

To me, the touted storyline process in the game reminds me more of the beginning of DA:O than anything that's going to follow you throughout the entire game. Look at the 30 minute sample video they gave us awhile back showing off the dialogue tree. Yes, within the instance, the dialogue turned a flag on or off. There were only two possible outcomes, captain dies or captain lives, and either way you're going to be fighting off a bunch of enemies boarding your ship, you'll just get the captains help as you go through the mission instead of the new captains help. If you let the captain lives, he's all "okay now that you're here if you help me I'll go do what I refused to do before". So what I'm saying is, that it looks like the first 10 or 20 levels or whatever will have key story elements scripted to just you, but once you break out into the MMO part of the game, while story elements will change the stated goal of the missions, the tasks will remain the same.

Maybe I'm wrong with other peoples expectations, but I can't shake this feeling that a lot of people expect the conversation system to play a major part in the actual GAME game. I think it's groundbreakingly wonderful for an MMO to have such a conversation system, but I don't think it's going to have any effect on the whole Game part.

Posted: Feb 22nd 2010 1:41PM Loki1 said

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the effects i hope for are the ones I describe in here http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/ColmMcAndrews/20100214/3861/Star_Wars_The_Old_Republic__Please_Save_Us_From_Ourselves.php

Effects, or better call 'em consequences aren't stats and, lol, aren't mob. Naturally consequences relate to how the world treats you. They should appear especially at the end. you know that all the good rpg's have different endings, that's where you see the result of ALL your actions.

So obviously once you conclude TOR's storyline you should have people against you. Depending on what people you have against you, you will have a "life". The life of a merc, that of a smuggler, a bounty hunter, a follower of the stately order, they all generate "mechanics".

Remember Ultima Online? Your karma decided your life. Murdering people forced you to live in woods, ambushing people, maybe join groups of bandits... so did the life of a thief, always on the hide, forming conclaves, living in the sewers.

That's how story and choices give effect. Not puerile matter of mob spawnzing.
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Posted: Feb 22nd 2010 1:38PM (Unverified) said

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I always laugh (and then throw up in my mouth a little) whenever someone says "well you don't have to buy it."

That applies to generic mmo's, but it doesn't apply to heavy-hitting IP's like SW, Trek, Tolkien, etc. If you're a huge fan of one of these properties, and you're also a fan of mmo's, well yes you do have to buy it, and you have to choke down whatever butchery the developers force-feed you.

Sure I could not buy STO, I'll just go play those other Trek mmos. Oh wait....

Posted: Feb 22nd 2010 1:53PM (Unverified) said

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I still don't get it. Why do you have to buy (for example) STO if you're a fan of Trek and of MMO's? Just because there are no other Trek MMO's to choose from? So what?! You got along without playing a Trek MMO before STO just fine; I bet you still can. Are people really that stupid and sheepish that the feel OBLIGATED to "choke-down" bad products just because of some irrational loyalty to an IP?

I am a Trek fan, and I love MMO's. I refuse to buy STO.
I am a Tolkien fan, and I love MMO's. I played LOTRO for awhile, but it just wasn't doing it for me.
I am a Star Wars fan, and I love MMO's. I've never played SWG and probably never will. I may or may not play SWTOR depending on whether or not it is a good game.

Am I an exception to a rule that states that being a fan of an IP automatically places you into inescapable bondage for life, forcing you to give-away time and money regardless of the quality of goods/services received?
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Posted: Feb 22nd 2010 2:27PM (Unverified) said

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I'm with Mitch. Like most geeks, I like Star Trek/Star Wars/LOtR... but I didn't buy STO, only played LOtRO for 2 months, and played SWG for the free month.
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Posted: Feb 22nd 2010 6:16PM Seare said

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I think its interesting how most people assume that MMO players start MMOs because of the social aspects. I didn't start MMOs because of that. I started because I was tired of shelling out $60 for a game that only gave me about 40 hours or less of content. After that, the game became useless to me. I started MMOs because I wanted to play a game that was constantly updated with new content.

I eventually got into a guild and it was fun. I didn't mind group content then. However, my guild eventually quit the game and moved to other games I had no interest in playing (AOC, WAR, AION, etc). Now I'm a loner again. I'll play with others if the opportunity presents itself, but I don't need too. The social aspects of MMOs are a great strength, but also a great weakness. Playing with cool people makes the game better, but playing with a-holes makes it horrible. I will not play a game that forces me to find a group. Believe it or not, we are many, but not as vocal.

The ideal game for me at this point would be KOTOR or Mass Effect 2 that is constantly updated with new content. I hope TOR will be something in the middle. My guild is talking about getting back together in TOR, so who knows. I'm keeping my expectations for this game realistic, as I do for all new MMOs.

Posted: Feb 22nd 2010 2:32PM Gaugamela said

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I'll be happy if SW:TOR is a Bioware game online and with PvP.

That entails: having an interesting storyline, interesting speccing options, top notch PvE. Besides this it should have common thing in decent MMOs: a decent PvP system, an open world, a solid crafting system.

Posted: Feb 22nd 2010 2:48PM Joshua Przygocki said

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Agreed, I would love to see it play like Dragon Age or Mass Effect
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Posted: Feb 22nd 2010 2:53PM (Unverified) said

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"It basically goes like this: some people want SWTOR to be an open world sandbox MMO with open PvP and an unforgiving learning curve that requires a lot of determined persistence from the player"
if they want that then they should just play EVE then.some of the best pvp ever.

Posted: Feb 22nd 2010 4:48PM Ingrod said

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"It basically goes like this: some people want SWTOR to be an open world sandbox MMO with open PvP and an unforgiving learning curve that requires a lot of determined persistence from the player. Some of these players were also worried about a heavy emphasis on equipment and grind. They'd rather their PvP be based on skill, not on what stats their gear from the 100+ raids on some dungeon supplies them with.

You know? That's completely fair. But let's not kid ourselves here: these guys -- whether they realize it or not -- want an online shooter/fighter with persistence, like Modern Warfare 2 or Bad Company 2. Sure, they're not exactly MMOs and they're certainly not Star Wars but they fit the above-listed parameters pretty well. Moving on..."

That is a wrong assumption, people heavily focused in FPS style PvP dont is the same that want a open world sandbox MMOs.

Is easy to understand FPS online games are played in PvP maps relatively small in extension, are games with "realistic" graphics and standariced mechanics (death match, capture the flag, etc.) WoW BGs or instanced PvP maps are the typical FPS game maps translated to MMOs, currently only instances are capable to reach frame rates and graphic level similar to FPS games.

Players dreaming with a open world sandbox are people that likes the UO/SWG/EVE MMO style, plus FFA PvP they want RvR gameplay, territorial control, good crafting, housing, player cities and bases, ingame economy, etc.

Players heavily focused in PvP hate "be forced" to grind, dont want play a ingame economy or housing or these other carebear things, these people are more akin to the BGs gameplay = instanced content. They dont worry about open world content because FPS focused games dont are open world games.

Non MMO gamers that want an big open world are people that likes RPG games how Oblivion, Dragon Age or Fallout.

The main groups in SWTOR forums are:

-SWG refugees, thay want a true sandbox MMO the more different to WoW the best.

-Casual Mainstream MMOs players aka. WoW playes searching for the next big thing.

-Hardcore Mainstream MMO players aka. EQ/WoW playars searching for the next big thing with hard group content, raids and BG (for them the only high end possible must have BG and raids, no BGs and raids = lack of end game content)

-Bioware RPG players aka. singleplayer gamer, they hate WoW, they hate SWG, they hate MMOs, they hate pay for play, thay wants the KOTOR 3.

-Hardcore FPS gamers, they hate pay to play, but are online game fans and/or Star Wars fans

-No gamer Star Wars fans

In the end...

SWG refugees:

"...some people want SWTOR to be an open world sandbox MMO with open PvP and an unforgiving learning curve that requires a lot of determined persistence from the player. Some of these players were also worried about a heavy emphasis on equipment and grind. They'd rather their PvP be based on skill, not on what stats their gear from the 100+ raids on some dungeon supplies them with"

Common online FPS gamers:

"You know? That's completely fair. But let's not kid ourselves here: these guys -- whether they realize it or not -- want an online shooter/fighter with persistence, like Modern Warfare 2 or Bad Company 2. Sure, they're not exactly MMOs and they're certainly not Star Wars but they fit the above-listed parameters pretty well. They'd rather their PvP be based on skill, not on what stats their gear from the 100+ raids on some dungeon supplies them with"

Fixed xD

Your analitics fail because begining with the wrong assumption that MMO mechanics are akin to EQ/WoW style MMOs, and that is not true, these mechanics are standart in mainstream MMOs but no more. Also sandbox MMORPGs dont have nothing to do with FPS online games. Are very different gameplays.

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